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Post by shorti on May 4, 2007 12:01:33 GMT -4
I read this article online today. Unfortunately I did not see the debate, but have heard about it. Just wondering what you guys think about Guiliani and his remarks? I say good for him! States his opinion and view on the subject but isn't going to force it down your throat! www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18486103/
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Post by mikey on May 4, 2007 12:20:22 GMT -4
I think it WILL be a liability for him in the primary. The conservative base will not support him. Their are a lot of people who base their votes on this single issue.
If he can make it through the primary, I think it will help him win the centrist vote.
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Post by baycitydan on May 4, 2007 13:04:05 GMT -4
It's disturbing to me that in order to basically go anywhere in the republican party these days, one has to be a pro-life candidate. I am a conservative in most instances, except with religion. I find it disgusting that republicans are now basically the party of born-agains first, and issues second. The majority of people that are anti-abortion are so based on their religious beliefs and not on much else. Because this party is cramming their religious beliefs on the American public I find them vile. I like what Guliani said and I like that he's smart enough to not force his personal opinion of abortion (doesn't like it) on the American people. I think that he's right on states making up their own decisions with abortion. If the overall population of a state is against abortion rights, then let them outlaw it in their state, etc. Unfortunately, Guliani won't win for many other reasons: He doesn't look the part, he's a 'Yankee' to southerners, marital affairs, Catholic so the bible thumpers won't like that, and he's not a polished speaker so sooner or later his mouth will get him in trouble.
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Post by misternuke on May 4, 2007 21:33:38 GMT -4
Funny thing is, though, that the folks who are the most negative about Rudy's chances of success in the Republican primaries are Dems! Perhaps it's because he has the best chance of taking a larger chunk of the center in the general elections than any Democrat candidate, and they need to try to sabotage his primary chances? As a Republican, I've heard very few fellow GOPers spouting the "Rudy's too liberal" stuff...mostly it's coming from Dems. I guess the bottom line is that who the GOP puts up is up to Republicans and who the Dems put up is up to them. Remember that all of the same "right wing takever" stuff put up by the Dems can be said of the leftists I would contend have the reigns in the Dem camp. It's strange, though, that I see very few GOPers wasting much breath maneuvering to convice the leftist base of the Democrat party that Candidate "X" is too far right and that Candidate "Y" would be a much better choice. I'm pretty conservative, and I still think he would be a good choice...nice try, though!
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Post by bchevy on May 4, 2007 22:17:28 GMT -4
Dem for Rudy, I doubt I'll get the chance to out his name down.
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Post by outlaw on May 4, 2007 23:15:18 GMT -4
I watched some of it. To me, Giuliani comes off as a real person and not a polished politician which is refreshing. Although abortion is a serious issue, I think he's right not to get bent out of shape about it, because even if Roe v. Wade is overturned people are still going to make their own choices.
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Post by baycitydan on May 5, 2007 2:59:41 GMT -4
"Misternuke",
If you are responding to me - I already said that I'm conservative. I have voted Republican forever - including for GWB the first time around. I saw how much of a colossal failure that he is/was, and didn't go for him again, but that was painful. Fact is, current Repubs are doe-eyed clueless Jesus freaks, and current Dems are "he's a minority - let's vote for him even though he's clueless". If you have a brain in your head, than clearly both are horrible. I wish that I had an answer as to which party is worth voting for, but right now they both are pitiful. As a registered republican, it hurts.
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Post by bchevy on May 5, 2007 6:19:04 GMT -4
1st problem: Stop looking at the party, look at the people.
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Post by shadow1 on May 5, 2007 10:23:19 GMT -4
BChevy - exactly, people get too caught up in the party crap. Left, right, conservative, liberal........just cut to the chase and tell us what your thoughts are on each issue and let the chips fall where they may. It's up to us the citizens to make a decision and hope it's the right one.
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Post by misternuke on May 5, 2007 11:19:04 GMT -4
and to Baycitydan....you make my point exactly....or at least you've bought into what the left would like the center to believe....
I'm not convinced that the base of the GOP is so completely to the right as many would have you bellieve. I firmly believe that there is Plenty-o-room in the GOP for a Rudy nomination.
With regard to Rudy himself, I just think we're in violent agreement.... the point of contention is where the GOP's center of gravity lies, and I contend that it is not nearly as far right as most (read: Dems) would have you believe. That's all.
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Post by ljp on May 5, 2007 11:22:48 GMT -4
I think some of you are missing the point, you let your anger (for whatever reason you have it) over "religious fanatics" cloud your thinking.
The issue is not and never has been (although it should be) which candidate supports abortion, it is which candidate supports FEDERALLY/ STATE FUNDED abortion. Re-read the article. You let the subject draw so much anger that you miss vital words. A candidate who does not support abortion will not allow our tax dollars to fund it.
Although, it is up to the individual what their moral stance is with regard to ending child’s life, I for one do not agree with abortion. Since I do not support it I do not want my tax dollars paying for it. If you are one who is promiscuous and aren't smart enough to use birth control, then you should face your consequences not ask me to pay for murder. Have the child, put it up for adoption or pay for the abortion out of your own pocket. The right to have an abortion isn’t about morality anymore it is really about forcing people taking responsibility for their actions. Sex leads to pregnancy, have a little self control and don’t do it OR deal you’re your actions. Abortion is a quick fix to what people think is a ‘problem’. I don’t think human life is a ‘problem’, it’s a blessing.
Voters have been choosing for years their candidate based on whether they do or do not support the act of abortion, but this just isn't the issue at hand.
I am sorry that you feel the way that you do BCD. Unfortunately you are one of the many that don’t see what the moral decline of our country has created over the last 50 years. Watch the 11:00 Baltimore news sometime just to get an idea what the world is like today. It sickens me that society does not value human life at all. That people don’t have a problem with randomly killing people on the street, that parents aren’t teaching their children that raping and killing an 80 year old woman is a bad thing. Or with reaching into a womans uterus, scraping the inner lining and vacuuming out a child and throw it away. (I know that that sounds gross but it is what it is.) This is a clear result of removing religion from our government and lives. The funny thing is though, the laws will convict a woman of murder if she delivers a child and throws it in a dumpster. Where is the logic in that? Isn't it the same thing?
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Post by ljp on May 5, 2007 11:23:08 GMT -4
Most of you know I am a Christian. Even though, I may still support Romney. He is a Mormon, although I have real issue with Mormons and don’t consider them Christian at all, I respect the fact that he is a faithful man who recognizes that there is a higher power that we all must adhere to, whether today or tomorrow. Because of his beliefs I know that he is a moral man, who believes in the sanctity of family. He is not Christian, he does not read the same Bible I do, he does not church like the rest of us. So those are not the reasons I would support him. I just know he won’t allow a law to pass that would force me to pay for an abortion when there are so many other programs that I currently pay for that would aide in birth control and assistance with responsible sexual behavior.
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Post by heather on May 5, 2007 11:53:15 GMT -4
LJP - I agree with you in the instance of using abortion as birth control. However, what about pregnancies that are a result of non-consensual sex or ones that endanger the health of either the mother or the child? I consider myself a Christian, although I probably wouldn't fit your definition of one, but I think that the issue of abortion just isn't that cut and dry.
That being said, there are soooo many other issues that are extremely important (not that abortion isn't) to our country (ie: health care, immigration laws, Defense issues, etc), that I don't think basing one's decision on a candidate based on one issue is the best thing for us.
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Post by baycitydan on May 5, 2007 14:10:47 GMT -4
LJP, I wouldn't call it "ending a child's life" because I in no way think that it is a child until the spinal cord is formed. That's what science says and not a baseless belief. Saying that (and normally I wouldn't bring it up), it's my belief and I wouldn't want to force you into giving up what you believe in. By the religious extremists taking away a womans rights in regards to abortion, they are indeed forcing that religious agenda on the population. People need to realize that many of us don't need to be "saved" and certainly aren't buying that line. That said, I would never vote for anyone who thinks that religion is anything of real importance. I also don't understand why some extremists consider other extremists that believe in the same guy in the sky as not "Christian". That's like a tax attorney not considering a defense lawyer as a lawyer
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Post by outlaw on May 6, 2007 12:31:34 GMT -4
I don't think tax dollars should fund abortion or a lot of other things. Things are a mess in Massachusetts though, so I need to look into Romney more before I decide. All I know for sure is definitely not Clinton or Obama for me!
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Post by ljp on May 6, 2007 14:20:13 GMT -4
Let's define something: extremists are ones who take God's laws to the extreme and decide it is their duty to act as judge, passing judgment then sentencing/ condemning. Like the ones bombing abortion clinics. The rest of us know what is right and wrong, try to behave the right way and try to show others the right way. But ultimately we know what you decide to do is your choice and aren't going to tie you to a tree to be forced to believe what we believe. However we do feel (and are taught) a sense of obligation to humanity. Since we know that everyone needs to be saved and we know what lies in the afterlife, we feel that it is our responsibility as we were tasked by our creator to give others the tools not only to be spared from an unimaginable eternity but also leading you towards a beautiful one. Really I don¡¦t necessarily understand what anyone has to lose by even hearing the Gospel none-the-less choosing it. Really, what do they have to lose? But we also feel we have a duty to create a world for our childrens children that isn't clouded by a bunch of things that God says is wrong. A world that is overcome with the likes of Brittany Spears for example forces us to have to explain the necessity for modesty to pre-teen girls who should be still playing dress up with dolls and then shelter our daughters from their peers. It sort of forces us underground in a way, where we have to begin separating ourselves from everyone else to keep from being overexposed and desensitized to the wrong activities. It isn't fair to us really. Where as you may think that our religious beliefs are being forced down your throat we feel like the things of this world that we feel so strongly against are being forced down ours. Heather: I am torn also by that situation. Personally I would like to think that if I were a child raped especially by a relative but old enough to bear children, that I would be able to do what was needed for that situation. I am torn because I know that it is wrong, but on the other hand it isn't fair since that person didn't have the option to behave responsibly, it was forced. Even if a pregnancy were a health risk for either mother and/ or child. That is a tough one. I would love to say that if it were me that I would do the right thing by my God. But humanly I don't really know if I could. I said I was a Christian that is not defined: Perfect Human! There is a really good book, if you are a reader, called "Atonement Child" - by Francine Rivers. It deals with such a situation and the struggles that the main character deals with from a biblical perspective. It was really interesting and a great book. BCD: I was not aware that there was a scientific 'decision' on the issue of 'when' life is formed. I thought it was still being argued. My sister-in-law is pregnant. She is high risk so we get to see a sonogram every few weeks and are watching this child grow. Very early on we were able to see in the sonogram hands, feet and skull I don't remember what else. The matter of the soul I don't think can be one 'created' at delivery. We truly believe that life is created and that you existed long before your parents decided you would be. Regardless, a child is living and growing at the time of inception. It moves, reacts to what the mother does, eats, says. I am not sure how this doesn't constitute a living child?
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Post by ljp on May 6, 2007 14:55:29 GMT -4
re: Christian vs. Christian. A Christian is defined as someone who follows Jesus, the Christ, the Messiah. They believe in the death, burial and resurrection of God's son incarnate. They believe that salvation is free to anyone who asks for it and since God/Jesus are the ones who 'save' then no 'man' can remove salvation from child of God. They believe in the sanctity of church as created by God through Paul and how necessary it is to commune and to also worship our creator. We believe that this isn’t something that is ‘secret’ that our doors are open to anyone who wished to enter through them. Jesus communed and then taught the diseased, the sexual deviants, the thieves. So much that the self righteous had him killed for it. Am I too good to do the same? Mormons church in secret. You have to be voted in by other members. No one is ‘welcome’. Jesus said, “Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke (yoke: bringing under control our passions and desires for the immoral and ungodly practices of the world ) upon you learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” “Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. It doesn’t say, “You decide who is worthy to come to me”. It says, “ …any one”. Mormons send out their young on missions to bring others in, but then put them through (earthly) judgments to determine if you are worthy to belong. Their entire belief system encircles around the visions of one man who lived and then died. A man that for as far as I am concerned had some mental issues. Their rules change every 50 years or so to accommodate what society dictates. For example: multiple marriages. I have to ask: what does the Bible say about it? Apparently that doesn’t matter to them. They also believe that if you tick them off, they can remove your salvation. Members who go against what that church decides members should do, for example even question the validity of the rules, are excommunicated and salvation removed. Um…what?? This goes against everything that God is. Men cannot remove salvation. Period. Sorry for the novel, I just had to explain the difference.
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Post by einebierbitte on May 6, 2007 18:28:21 GMT -4
I have learned a long time ago, that it is truly pointless to debate politics, religion or sex in a public and or private arena....If your itching for a public debate to turn nasty, those 3 topics will do it.... All because everyone has their own thoughts, biases, positions and beliefs. I started to type out this whole "sermon" on abortion vs religion and halfway thru deleted it because it doesn't really matter. What matter is this, the next few months we are going to be pelted with all matters of views, beliefs, truths, half truths and out and out lies by all those who are throwing in their hats for the next presidential election. It really is time to look past the parties and start looking at the candidates as humans (I know it's a stretch) and asking yourself, can you put your trust in this person to do what this country so desperately needs? Obviously the Democrats believe the Republicans have screwed up this country, and the Republicans know the democrats will be just as screwy. So maybe it's time we disbanded the parties and start voting on the person. I am dreaming I know...It will never happen in our lifetime... but I haven't voted a straight party ticket in years... although I am a registered something.......I work right down the street from the Capitol buildings and the White house and it truly saddens me that those elected can't get off their high horses and start working together for the betterment of our country, instead of tearing it apart...because of the "party". Perhaps if they spent less time grandstanding, and filibustering and more time trying solve the problems of our country, we might not be in the shape that we are in. I deal with a lot of congressional staffers on a daily basis, and it never ceases to amaze me the waste of manpower and tax dollars that they waste on a daily basis for spending time on issues that aren't going to change anything. JMO. I am not the most knowelegable when it comes to politics...So I do enjoy reading others opinions... The main thing to remember is that just because someone doesn't believe the same as you do...doesn't make them anymore right or wrong then you. Again...JMIO!!!!
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Post by jake on May 6, 2007 21:23:53 GMT -4
einebierbitte, I agree. I think they (congress, Dem's & Rep's & Pres.) have ALL failed. That's why I won't be voting for any incumbent in any future races, and I won't be voting for any 'wet finger in the wind' tell'em what the polls say politician, as so many are. It's just pathetic whats going on with our political "leaders" and party's in this country.
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Post by AlexM on May 6, 2007 22:50:56 GMT -4
OMG, Jesus is a myth at best, science has proven to the non-doe eyed that life begins with the cord/brain connection as bcd said, and it is mind boggling that someone could believe in a monster in the clouds. There is no heaven or hell. that was set up to give humanity rules (and good ones) to live by. Thou shall not kill, etc. A great thing to live by, even if our government doesn't. Religion is not fact, not proven anything, and basically only a pacifier for people that can't deal with their mortality. Whatever. If it helps you get through the day, then cool. I get very ticked when the "thumpers" come a' knockin' at my door though. I tell them to go away, and if they don't, I lay logic into them. That always sends them running! Look at every war going on in the world and "God is on there side". Explain famine in places like Africa. Explain Muslim nut jobs making their women wear body armor because their God says so, explain abortion clinic bombings, explain televangelists like Benny Hinn bilking millions from morons, explain Jim Jones and his death cool-aid, explain Hitler "cleansing the Jews", explain the Irish / English IRA war, explain Bosnia, explain any of this crap that is going on, or has gone on, in the name of "God". If there is a God, than it's a pretty messed up being, and I can't imagine why any human could possibly look up to it, if it actually existed. Any supreme power that could control things like starvation among children in Africa: but doesn't, simply can't exist, or shouldn't.
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Post by Pete Richter on May 8, 2007 6:38:00 GMT -4
ljp.....There was Adam & Eve, and Cain & Abel. Cain murdered 25% of the population when he killed Abel his brother. After all these years man has come a long way, or has he?
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Post by ljp on May 8, 2007 9:36:46 GMT -4
OMG, Jesus is a myth at best, science has proven to the non-doe eyed that life begins with the cord/brain connection as bcd said, and it is mind boggling that someone could believe in a monster in the clouds... ...and I can't imagine why any human could possibly look up to it, if it actually existed... well, then I guess you told me... (yes that was sarcasm) btw I could not 'imagine' why any human does NOT look up to God. Well then, what constitutes something that is living? If a child is feeding on and dependent upon it's mother and grows (from the very beginning it is conceived) then isn't it 'living'? If I plant a seed in my garden and it grows into a tomato plant, at what point do I consider it alive? I mean if it weren't alive would there be a plant at all? The fact that anyone can say that a child isn't 'alive' until it 'grows' a connection between the brain and spinal column is absurd to me. you may not believe in "the monster in the clouds" (which by the way couldn't sound more ignorant) but He believes in you. I for one wouldn't want to stand in front of Him one day and repeat that comment.
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Post by ljp on May 8, 2007 9:42:05 GMT -4
Religion is not fact, not proven anything... prove to me then the alternative? You can't. I get very ticked when the "thumpers" come a' knockin' at my door though. I tell them to go away, and if they don't, I lay logic into them. That always sends them running! , simply can't exist, or shouldn't. Logic? Exactly what 'logic' could you provide that argues your creator? The fact that evangelists go running when you speak to them like that doesn't prove that your arguement is correct, it only proves that you are hard headed and there is no talking with someone who is hard headed. Don't misunderstand someone's unwillingness to get into an arguement with you on your door step with someone who has backed down from their beliefs.
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Post by ljp on May 8, 2007 9:45:03 GMT -4
and Pete I never said that sins of that nature haven't always been with us, is there an OT story that talks of child molestation? My point is that there are many other crimes against humanity that seem to me to be 'newer' and more frequent in the last 50 years or so.
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Post by AlexM on May 8, 2007 10:40:44 GMT -4
With what is going on in the world (starvation, wars, killing, AIDS, etc), it amazes me that anyone could possibly think that there is some magical being in the sky.
If the brain isn't there or not working, it is not a person. It basically is a tomato. The whole "soul" thing doesn't work because there is zero proof of it and zero proof of a God. A lot of people just can't except that we are biological beings, just like every other animal, and we are only here for a limited time. "Heaven" is a nice way of dealing with that mortality issue. What I find funny is that people can't even agree on who gets in to the magical place in the clouds. According to Jews, they are the "chosen people" and Christians are worshiping a false god. Muslims call their Deity another name, but it's the same thing. Everyone is an "infidel" to them it seems. Catholics "pray for the conversion of the Jews" because they ain't getting' in, different sects of Baptists think that only they are "Christian", even though the Catholics were first, so nobody but them are getting in, Born Agains think that they have to "save" everyone because they are just that ignorant, and everyone in between thinks that only they are going up to the clouds to play harps. And we wonder why wars are going on...
Take a step back and really consider the likelihood of a magical being in the sky. This being created everything, but there is no proof of that. The dates in the bible make no sense, because the world is proven to be millions of years old, not thousands. This being wants his little creations to fight wars in his name, and to worship him. He lets massive suffering go on to teach others a lesson, he wants to be prayed to, but never answers, and he created an imperfect world full of imperfect people. It's truly mind boggling that you could believe in something about as believable as Santa Clause.
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