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Post by - on Aug 24, 2009 19:30:41 GMT -4
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Post by funnel101 on Aug 24, 2009 21:14:44 GMT -4
You're braver than I am, cg. ;D I heard about this days ago and didn't even think of posting it on here!
But yes: about time!
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Post by - on Aug 24, 2009 22:12:57 GMT -4
Thanks Funnell.... a Few years ago when I lived in MOCO and was a member of Trinity Lutheran Church ( where dad was a minister for 18 years ) there was a notice of a forum in our Sunday bulletin. It was a a pull out form if the Lutheran Church of America should allow gays to be part of the leadership as pastors or not. I am not opinionated. ;D lol So I filled out the registration of the forum and in bold letters, I clearly stated that this should be a "NON ISSUE" as we are a church a gathering place to celebrate our God. I got a call from my minister. He asked for me to come to the Forum for discussion, because of my opinion. With my work schedule I managed to come. I was in the fashion industry for over 30 years, I have many gay friends. Some still alive, and some who died of AIDS. My thought on the entire issue is that whether straight or gay, when we all go to work, we put our personal lives aside. We go to work and come home and then we have our private lives. Don't we all do this? Or at least try to do so? I also reminded our church forum about a Sunday school song that I learned ..."Jesus Loves The Little Children " Are we to be prejudice? Who cares? Are we Christians or not? If we condom people of their sexuality, are we Christians? Something to think about. I hope that The Lutheran Church of America opens they arms and their hearts The Lutheran Church is in 2 divisions. ELCA and the Missouri Synod. They are 2 different organizations. All I can say is IT'S ABOUT TIME! -cg
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Post by shorti on Aug 27, 2009 9:50:00 GMT -4
well... here come the smites but I have to say it... And while I'm not doing this for the debate factor, I want to share some things with you... BIBLICALLY - this is WRONG and a SIN - so now the ELCA is discrediting the very Word that they preach. They are "picking & choosing" what they choose to believe in according to God's Word. In which, mind you, they say they believe in. This SHOULD be an issue. Basically what they are allowing is a "cancer" in their church. They are saying that we should obey & live by the Bible & it's rules, yet they are not obeying them themselves... I would call that hypocrisy. Harsh, yes... but I've never been known to sugar coat things... and honestly truth hurts at times... NOW - CG - Your questions... "are we to be prejudice?" ABSOLUTELY NOT - ONLY God can judge us. But as Christians, we are held to a different standard - God's - not the worlds standards. The world is saying we should be more tolerant of homosexuality - NOT God. But again, we are not to condemn the person for what they do regardless of the sin. We are to love the person - "hate" the action & no condone it. Similar to your kids - if they are doing something wrong - we still love them, but we tell them they are wrong & why. Same principle applies here cause we are ALL God's children regardless if we believe that or not. "If we condemn people of their sexuality, are we Christians?" I'm guessing you mean because of their sexuality - so that's what I'm addressing... 1 - see above... same principle - love the person, not the action... NOT doing that, is Biblically wrong... sin of omission at that point. I have a friend who is openly gay but claims to be Christian - yet he recognizes that he will go to hell because of his sin against God & because he hasn't repented. He's torn & I can empathize with his pain, but then again - ONLY God can truly make the change. So I would say, if we claim to be Christian & accept this into our churches we are being hypocritical. No different than someone claiming to be Christian & then is having an affair - the life isn't adding up to the talk... does that make sense? the Sunday school song "Jesus love the little children" Yes, He does - but here's the kicker... those that reject Him - while He still loves them & desires for them to come to Him, the will perish... now that's something to think about... Sometimes the most loving thing to do is give someone a kick in the you know what... As a Christian, and not holding onto any "religion" here, just simply a Bible believing Christian, (call me a thumper if you want to... ) I think this is a terrible thing that our churches our lowering their standards & therefore teaching false truth. One day we will all be held accountable, I wouldn't want to be a part of that leadership on that day. While I'm not perfect & I fall - probably daily - I know that I know that I know that when I'm on my face before our Lord, and I'm sincerely asking for His forgiveness... I have it. I've learned to rely on Him for everything in my life - major decisions don't get made - for me or my household - without time in prayer about it. And when I don't hear an answer, I make sure I'm not holding onto a sinful nature - because He's not going to answer me if I'm holding onto sin - then when I establish that, I will continue in prayer - if still no answer - I resign to the fact that all of this is in His time. But I have to tell you - there have been times when it's been this huge billboard w/ neon lights... and then sometimes it's just a subtle whisper... I know alot of you won't agree with this but it is Truth & according to the Bible Take the time to read 1 Corinthians 6:9
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Post by einebierbitte on Aug 27, 2009 10:20:42 GMT -4
well... here come the smites but I have to say it... And while I'm not doing this for the debate factor, I want to share some things with you... BIBLICALLY - this is WRONG and a SIN - so now the ELCA is discrediting the very Word that they preach. They are "picking & choosing" what they choose to believe in according to God's Word. In which, mind you, they say they believe in. This SHOULD be an issue. Basically what they are allowing is a "cancer" in their church. They are saying that we should obey & live by the Bible & it's rules, yet they are not obeying them themselves... I would call that hypocrisy. Harsh, yes... but I've never been known to sugar coat things... and honestly truth hurts at times... NOW - CG - Your questions... "are we to be prejudice?" ABSOLUTELY NOT - ONLY God can judge us. But as Christians, we are held to a different standard - God's - not the worlds standards. The world is saying we should be more tolerant of homosexuality - NOT God. But again, we are not to condemn the person for what they do regardless of the sin. We are to love the person - "hate" the action & no condone it. Similar to your kids - if they are doing something wrong - we still love them, but we tell them they are wrong & why. Same principle applies here cause we are ALL God's children regardless if we believe that or not. "If we condemn people of their sexuality, are we Christians?" I'm guessing you mean because of their sexuality - so that's what I'm addressing... 1 - see above... same principle - love the person, not the action... NOT doing that, is Biblically wrong... sin of omission at that point. I have a friend who is openly gay but claims to be Christian - yet he recognizes that he will go to hell because of his sin against God & because he hasn't repented. He's torn & I can empathize with his pain, but then again - ONLY God can truly make the change. So I would say, if we claim to be Christian & accept this into our churches we are being hypocritical. No different than someone claiming to be Christian & then is having an affair - the life isn't adding up to the talk... does that make sense? the Sunday school song "Jesus love the little children" Yes, He does - but here's the kicker... those that reject Him - while He still loves them & desires for them to come to Him, the will perish... now that's something to think about... Sometimes the most loving thing to do is give someone a kick in the you know what... As a Christian, and not holding onto any "religion" here, just simply a Bible believing Christian, (call me a thumper if you want to... ) I think this is a terrible thing that our churches our lowering their standards & therefore teaching false truth. One day we will all be held accountable, I wouldn't want to be a part of that leadership on that day. While I'm not perfect & I fall - probably daily - I know that I know that I know that when I'm on my face before our Lord, and I'm sincerely asking for His forgiveness... I have it. I've learned to rely on Him for everything in my life - major decisions don't get made - for me or my household - without time in prayer about it. And when I don't hear an answer, I make sure I'm not holding onto a sinful nature - because He's not going to answer me if I'm holding onto sin - then when I establish that, I will continue in prayer - if still no answer - I resign to the fact that all of this is in His time. But I have to tell you - there have been times when it's been this huge billboard w/ neon lights... and then sometimes it's just a subtle whisper... I know alot of you won't agree with this but it is Truth & according to the Bible Take the time to read 1 Corinthians 6:9 thought provoking indeed!! Well said Shorti!!!
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Post by funnel101 on Aug 27, 2009 11:57:41 GMT -4
1 Corinthians 6:9: "Neither lechers nor idolators nor adulterers nor effeminates nor pederasts nor thieves nor the covetous, none who are drunken or abusive or rapacious, shall inherit the Kingdom of God."
Written by Paul to a group of early Christians who were trying to separate themselves from the Greeks, whose culture encouraged gay relationships between older men and young men.
And if you deny the above paragraph, explain why women are allowed to speak in your church or attend services without their hair covered. That's something else Paul said. He also encouraged followers not to get married because it would be a distraction from God, but to only get married if they couldn't resist the temptation for sex. Does your church encourage people not to get married and stay celibate for life?
Don't pick and choose, right? So, if being anti-homosexual was so important to Jesus, why did he say nothing about it? Nothing. About. It. Yes, the one or two times when he speaks of marriage, he speaks of one man and one woman, but the people he was speaking to at the time couldn't have understood any other ideas of marriage.
I've read the New Testament from Christmas to Lent for the last 3 years. What's always struck me is that what Paul (note that it's Paul, not Jesus, who says anything about homosexuality) is really railing against is LUST. When he talks about people having sex with members of their own sex, he speaks about it as if their lust was so great that sex with members of the opposite sex couldn't satisfy it. To me, this sounds more like someone who is straight but gets gay men to give him blowjobs because they're good at it. Not like someone who is naturally attracted to members of the same sex.
I think Paul would be a lot more horrified at the blatant lack of sexual ethics in our society--the spouses who cheat, the advertisers who use lust to sell their products, our obsession with sexually-attractive celebrities, etc--than he would be about two men who want to get married, for example.
Besides that, what Jesus does spend a lot of time talking about is love: taking care of the outcasts, feeding the hungry, etc.
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Post by chevyman22 on Aug 27, 2009 12:29:04 GMT -4
well... here come the smites but I have to say it... And while I'm not doing this for the debate factor, I want to share some things with you... BIBLICALLY - this is WRONG and a SIN - so now the ELCA is discrediting the very Word that they preach. They are "picking & choosing" what they choose to believe in according to God's Word. In which, mind you, they say they believe in. This SHOULD be an issue. Basically what they are allowing is a "cancer" in their church. They are saying that we should obey & live by the Bible & it's rules, yet they are not obeying them themselves... I would call that hypocrisy. Harsh, yes... but I've never been known to sugar coat things... and honestly truth hurts at times... NOW - CG - Your questions... "are we to be prejudice?" ABSOLUTELY NOT - ONLY God can judge us. But as Christians, we are held to a different standard - God's - not the worlds standards. The world is saying we should be more tolerant of homosexuality - NOT God. But again, we are not to condemn the person for what they do regardless of the sin. We are to love the person - "hate" the action & no condone it. Similar to your kids - if they are doing something wrong - we still love them, but we tell them they are wrong & why. Same principle applies here cause we are ALL God's children regardless if we believe that or not. "If we condemn people of their sexuality, are we Christians?" I'm guessing you mean because of their sexuality - so that's what I'm addressing... 1 - see above... same principle - love the person, not the action... NOT doing that, is Biblically wrong... sin of omission at that point. I have a friend who is openly gay but claims to be Christian - yet he recognizes that he will go to hell because of his sin against God & because he hasn't repented. He's torn & I can empathize with his pain, but then again - ONLY God can truly make the change. So I would say, if we claim to be Christian & accept this into our churches we are being hypocritical. No different than someone claiming to be Christian & then is having an affair - the life isn't adding up to the talk... does that make sense? the Sunday school song "Jesus love the little children" Yes, He does - but here's the kicker... those that reject Him - while He still loves them & desires for them to come to Him, the will perish... now that's something to think about... Sometimes the most loving thing to do is give someone a kick in the you know what... As a Christian, and not holding onto any "religion" here, just simply a Bible believing Christian, (call me a thumper if you want to... ) I think this is a terrible thing that our churches our lowering their standards & therefore teaching false truth. One day we will all be held accountable, I wouldn't want to be a part of that leadership on that day. While I'm not perfect & I fall - probably daily - I know that I know that I know that when I'm on my face before our Lord, and I'm sincerely asking for His forgiveness... I have it. I've learned to rely on Him for everything in my life - major decisions don't get made - for me or my household - without time in prayer about it. And when I don't hear an answer, I make sure I'm not holding onto a sinful nature - because He's not going to answer me if I'm holding onto sin - then when I establish that, I will continue in prayer - if still no answer - I resign to the fact that all of this is in His time. But I have to tell you - there have been times when it's been this huge billboard w/ neon lights... and then sometimes it's just a subtle whisper... I know alot of you won't agree with this but it is Truth & according to the Bible Take the time to read 1 Corinthians 6:9 This pretty much sums it up.
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Post by funnel101 on Aug 27, 2009 12:36:50 GMT -4
If you rail against those who pick and choose, why does your church not follow everything in the Bible, from Jewish kosher standards to Paul's standards for women?
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Post by shorti on Aug 27, 2009 12:49:25 GMT -4
Funnel... Not sure which version you got that from (not saying it's not accurate either) but here's the version I have 1 Corithians 6:9: Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders (NIV) Now - marriage - God made Eve to be a companion for Adam - a wife. And it is throughout the Bible that marriage is between a man & a woman - Matthew 19:4-5: "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? (NIV) This was spoken by Jesus - pretty clear to me. the comment about the people he was speaking to couldn't have understood any other ideas of marriage I disagree with. He was speaking to the Pharises & they were well aware of homosexuality. Sodom & Gomorrah - the were destroyed for sexual immorality including homosexuality. Marriage is literally a God-given right... but I'll find that as well... this was a problem of mine w/ the Catholic faith - I didn't understand why priests were to remain celibate... I have that somewhere... i do I know I do - when I find it, I'll post... Now - Christianity believes in both the Old & New Testament, not just the New. And it's taken as a combined book, unlike the Jewish faith believes only in the Old. Also as a Christian we believe that the Bible is God-breathed. In your case of Paul - Paul is one of the Giants of the faith, he is a confirmed & reputable disciple of Christ. He is teaching what Christ taught. This was written after the death & resurrection of Christ. I do agree that Paul would be appalled at our current society not only in regards to our sexual ethics or lack thereof but i believe he would be equally appalled at the homosexuality in the church... Jesus does speak alot of love - very true & like I mentioned in my first post - sometimes the most loving thing you can do is give someone a kick in the rear & tell them they are wrong. Again - love the person - not the act. I believe, cause we know each other - that we will have to agree to disagree... but I'm willing to discuss this with you at anytime... still love ya Funnel!!!
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Post by chevyman22 on Aug 27, 2009 12:50:33 GMT -4
What do you believe the bible says about homosexuality?
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Post by funnel101 on Aug 27, 2009 12:59:49 GMT -4
[Replying to shorti here:]
The NT translation I use is Richmond Lattimore's, who was an Ancient Greek scholar and translator.
Still, shorti, one of your claims was that those who support homosexuals being involved in a church are picking and choosing which sections of the Bible they respect. You didn't reply to my questions about whether your church follows ALL of what Paul spoke about.
That Matthew quote was specifically in response to a question about divorce, not about homosexuality.
Soddom and Gomorrah (sp?), there's a strong case to be argued that the real sin there was lack of hospitality, which was required by Jewish law at the time, not sexual immorality.
About marriage being a God-given right and your problem with Catholic priests, here you go: 1 Corinthians 7: "Concerning the matters you wrote me of, it is a good thing for a man not to touch any woman; but to save you from loose living, let each man have his own wife, and each woman have her own husband." And more in that same chapter, a few paragraphs later.
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Post by funnel101 on Aug 27, 2009 13:00:25 GMT -4
What do you believe the bible says about homosexuality? I don't believe the Bible says anything definitive about it, not as we understand the meaning of the word today.
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Post by einebierbitte on Aug 27, 2009 13:04:29 GMT -4
www.cmfnow.com/articles/pe182.htmIt's a long read, but it puts it into perspective. This was written in 1994. People manipulate the word of God and other teachings quite librally and easily! Heck, you and I can read the same verse and get two complletetly different views.... It's easy to interpret the bible to fit your beliefs. Makes you wonder which side is really right? Or if there is a right or wrong side.... Bottom line is, it's only gonna matter on judgement day.......
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Post by funnel101 on Aug 27, 2009 13:11:38 GMT -4
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Post by shorti on Aug 27, 2009 13:15:04 GMT -4
If you rail against those who pick and choose, why does your church not follow everything in the Bible, from Jewish kosher standards to Paul's standards for women? Missed this... sorry... Standards for women - 1 Corinthians 11:11-16 In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. 13Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God. Women as teachers is another one... a woman should not be in the pulpit on Sunday.. this is something recent that I've dealt with when I read 1 Timothy 2:12-14. however they can teach in an appropriate setting... he was speaking of public teaching.
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Post by funnel101 on Aug 27, 2009 13:16:54 GMT -4
So, shorti, women with short hair are required to wear head coverings in your church? And I assume your church teaches nonviolence and pacifism as well?
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Post by einebierbitte on Aug 27, 2009 13:28:05 GMT -4
I have read that one funnel, like I said...It's all up to interpretation. Everyone of us is going to be able to find whatever to back up whatever we believe in.
Their is no way to discern who is right or who is wrong....
If you believe in God, then you believe what you believe...
If you don't believe in God, then you believe what you believe in...
Which side are you on? Who is right? Who isn't? Who are you to say that my beliefs are wrong, any more than who am I to say yours are.
What makes you so sure that your beliefs are "the beliefs" to believe?
So what do you do? You do the best that you can for yourself and your family, lead a good life, help others.
I can't nor care to prove that you are any more right about this subject than I am.
I chose to believe the way that I do, but I don't condemn others who believe differently... But I will challenge their beliefs, just as they challenge mine.... and maybe even learn something in the process.
You believe you are right, Shorti believes she is right, Mr. Ed believes he is right....
The only way any religious debate will be settled is in death or Judgement day, and that is just my opinion!
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Post by funnel101 on Aug 27, 2009 13:39:23 GMT -4
There is a way to discern: listen to the Holy Spirit and let It guide you. A good book for learning how to do this is "Sacred Compass" by Brent Bill.
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Post by shorti on Aug 27, 2009 13:53:36 GMT -4
Funnel, my point about the Catholic priest - basically you say... they are told to marry but only 1 wife.... Again - agree to disagree about Sodom & Gomorrah... the sexual immorality was there & is referred to several other times in the Bible as an example. in regards to kosher eating... and it gets a little fuzzy... but basically - in Acts 10:15 God told Peter "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” He was referring to the food he had given to him & told him to eat - was not kosher. Also - kinda a broad spectrum here - but when Jesus died on the cross, He paid the price - the penalty of the Law of Moses for sin. So I guess it becomes a question of if you believe that Jesus is the Messiah & really died & really rose again & ascended into heaven for the sins of all men or not. Eine is correct - we can all read the same thing & take different views, I agree. It all comes down to what you believe in... Eine as an answer to your question... I believe there is a right & wrong... and there's only One... and we will all find out on judgement day...
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Post by einebierbitte on Aug 27, 2009 14:00:18 GMT -4
LOL!!! And what If one doesn't believe in the Holy Spirit? What then? For the record, I do believe in the Holy spirit, the power of prayer and faith.... I don't believe in organized religion....
See.... I could spend hours on the information highway pulling up references that the Holy Spirit is alive and well or that it's just figment of some religions imaginations.....
You are tolerant of homosexuality, I am not. My beliefs lead me to that conclusion...
Am I wrong? Nope. Are you wrong? Can't say that you are...because those are your beliefs.....who am I to condemn the way you believe....
It's all good!! We agree to disagree, and have done so without malice!!!
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Post by shorti on Aug 27, 2009 14:01:48 GMT -4
So, shorti, women with short hair are required to wear head coverings in your church? And I assume your church teaches nonviolence and pacifism as well? EEAAASSSYYYY there Funnel... Ok - no - if you read that passage it specifically refers to a woman shaving her head... it's saying that a women was given long hair in lieu of a veil... but the Bible also mentions that they should have their heads covered when they are prophesying (sp?) not when they enter a church... however the end of this passage is kinda a smart alic remark... Also - you keep referring to my church - while yes, i attend church & believe in their beliefs... I'm not referring specifically to any religion or church - I am basing my beliefs & my statements on the Bible - like I said in my original post... as a Bible believing Christian.
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Post by shorti on Aug 27, 2009 14:13:52 GMT -4
LOL!!! And what If one doesn't believe in the Holy Spirit? What then? For the record, I do believe in the Holy spirit, the power of prayer and faith.... I don't believe in organized religion.... See.... I could spend hours on the information highway pulling up references that the Holy Spirit is alive and well or that it's just figment of some religions imaginations..... You are tolerant of homosexuality, I am not. My beliefs lead me to that conclusion... Am I wrong? Nope. Are you wrong? Can't say that you are...because those are your beliefs.....who am I to condemn the way you believe.... It's all good!! We agree to disagree, and have done so without malice!!! EXACTLY!!! I made a post in regards to MY belief on this... however, here was my thinking.. this is a CHRISTIAN Church who says they are BIBLICAL... well me being a Christian who believes in the Bible not a religion... has a problem with that & expressed my view... Not condemning someone else for believing something different - hoping maybe to enlighten someone & hope that God will soften their heart to hear. Funnel... I do listen to the Holy Spirit, like I said in my original post... we don't make decisions in our family without prayer & direction from our Lord. It's a tough debate... if you believe in one thing & I another - we of course have different views... I don't believe that a gay person should be allowed to preach the Gospel, since there are several areas in it that say it is wrong. I think it's misleading & hypocritical...
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Post by funnel101 on Aug 27, 2009 14:20:28 GMT -4
LOL!!! And what If one doesn't believe in the Holy Spirit? What then? For the record, I do believe in the Holy spirit, the power of prayer and faith.... I don't believe in organized religion.... See.... I could spend hours on the information highway pulling up references that the Holy Spirit is alive and well or that it's just figment of some religions imaginations..... You are tolerant of homosexuality, I am not. My beliefs lead me to that conclusion... Am I wrong? Nope. Are you wrong? Can't say that you are...because those are your beliefs.....who am I to condemn the way you believe.... It's all good!! We agree to disagree, and have done so without malice!!! I'm more than tolerant: I'm accepting. We can agree to disagree, but it saddens me because there are so many GLBT people who suffer because of the belief that non-heterosexuality is a sin. It would be easier for me to just say "we agree to disagree" if it was about something that didn't affect people I know personally. As it is, I try to speak up about this topic, out of respect and love.
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Post by einebierbitte on Aug 27, 2009 15:05:18 GMT -4
LOL!!! And what If one doesn't believe in the Holy Spirit? What then? For the record, I do believe in the Holy spirit, the power of prayer and faith.... I don't believe in organized religion.... See.... I could spend hours on the information highway pulling up references that the Holy Spirit is alive and well or that it's just figment of some religions imaginations..... You are tolerant of homosexuality, I am not. My beliefs lead me to that conclusion... Am I wrong? Nope. Are you wrong? Can't say that you are...because those are your beliefs.....who am I to condemn the way you believe.... It's all good!! We agree to disagree, and have done so without malice!!! I'm more than tolerant: I'm accepting. We can agree to disagree, but it saddens me because there are so many GLBT people who suffer because of the belief that non-heterosexuality is a sin. It would be easier for me to just say "we agree to disagree" if it was about something that didn't affect people I know personally. As it is, I try to speak up about this topic, out of respect and love. Let me rephrase I am tolerent of those that choose (and yes I believe it's a choice that they make) the gay lifestyle, as I do have friends who are gay however I am not accepting of that lifestyle. ...As shorti said a couple of times....Love the person, not the act.
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Post by funnel101 on Aug 27, 2009 15:15:19 GMT -4
If it's a choice to be gay, did you choose to be straight?
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