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Post by kl on Nov 16, 2009 14:01:49 GMT -4
www.nytimes.com/2009/11/16/opinion/16mon4.html?_r=1&ref=opinionDr. No and the Wounded Veterans Published: November 15, 2009 A creative plan to help wounded veterans and their exhausted families adapt to the strain of long-term home care is on the brink of bipartisan approval — but for the familiar obstructionism of Senator Tom Coburn. This is one of the most deplorable displays by the lawmaker-physician, an Oklahoma Republican who relishes playing the self-styled budget hawk by putting attention-grabbing holds on crucial legislation. Skip to next paragraph Related Times Topics: Tom Coburn The urgently needed legislation consolidates more than a dozen improvements in veterans’ health care — most notably a new assistance program for family members who wind up providing lifelong home nursing to severely disabled veterans. These vital caregivers — who sacrifice careers and put huge strains on their own mental health — assume an obligation “that ultimately belongs to the government,” Senator Daniel Akaka, the bill’s chief sponsor, properly notes. The measure also expands benefits for women veterans who suffered sexual trauma on duty, extends veterans’ care in rural areas, tightens quality control at V.A. hospitals, and ensures that catastrophically disabled veterans will not be charged for emergency services in community hospitals. The omnibus legislation drew unanimous committee approval. But Senator Coburn objected to quick floor passage, demanding that the five-year, $3.7 billion cost be offset with immediate budget cuts. The senator’s argument rings hollow in the face of veterans’ suffering and the world of deficit budgeting brought on by his party’s tax cuts and zealous war investments. Now he is demanding balanced books for wounded vets? Sheer embarrassment should drive the senator into retreat as he trifles with veterans’ needs and burnishes his petty role as Dr. No.
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Post by grova on Nov 16, 2009 17:21:13 GMT -4
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Post by RobMoore on Nov 16, 2009 18:18:25 GMT -4
I thought the nickname "Dr. No" was already taken by Ron Paul.
I've seen this game played hundreds of times. "Oh, you must be against (insert something only an evil person would be against) because you didn't vote for this bill", when its quite easy to be against the bill but not the idea.
I didn't read the bill, nor do I know the voting history of the Senator in question, but the way this article reads, the game I described above is exactly what is being played on us by the writer of that article.
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Post by Frank on Nov 16, 2009 23:35:30 GMT -4
I thought the nickname "Dr. No" was already taken by Ron Paul. Or Joseph Wiseman
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Post by dej on Nov 17, 2009 6:56:03 GMT -4
Not surprisingly, the New York Times article fails to mention a couple items. They correctly point out that Sen. Coburn is blocking it over financial concerns. They fail to mention that the hold was put in place to force the Senate to consider amendments that address the costs of and other problems with the bill, which were conviently left out of the editorial. .
To address the funding for the bill, Coburn has offered a couple amendments. One amendment would eliminate earmarks for Department of Defense projects unless they were requested by the Commander in Chief. The bill has 96 military construction earmarks at a cost of $633 million. Only 33 of these earmarks were requested by President Obama. His amendment would preseve funding for the President's requests, and redirect funding for the other 63 earmarks added by Senators, to be used to fund veterans healthcare instead. Instead of the "Dr. No" image that the NY Times regularly used to portray Coburn, he actually appears to be trying to work in a bipartisan fashion. He preseves the earmarks requested by by Democratic President, while eliminating earmarks added by Senators, regardless of party. Predictably, this amendment was voted down yesterday, as piling on earmarks is a time-honored tradition by politicians.
His other amendment would offset the cost of the bill by reducing a portion of the $4 Billion plus that the US contributes to the UN annually. The NY Times fails to mention that Coburn would lift his hold on this bill if the Democratic leadership of the Senate, ie. Senator Reid and Committiee Chairman Akaka would allow debate and an up or down vote on his amendment. Unfortunately, debate is not something Senator Reid encourages. Like Speaker Pelosi, he prefers the "my way or the highway" approach when he can force things trhough. It's not really fair to exclude his role in hold ing up the bill, but for the NY Times editorial board, fairness generally takes a back seat to Reid's agenda.
A Coburn objection to the bill that the NY Times fails to mention is the fact that it discriminates against the majority of disabled veterans. While the Times talks about the expansion of veterans benefits in the bill, it doesn't mention that the bill limits these benefits to veterans on Operations Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom. Coburn's amendments would provide this coverage "for all disabled veterans, including but not limited to, those who fought in World War II, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, Operation Desert Shield, Operation Desert Storm, the Operation Enduring Freedom, Operation Iraqi Freedom, and any combat zone in the War on Terrorism".
Another Coburn concern, not mentioned by the Times, is that none of the provisions of this bill take effect for at least a year (or more for some provisions). His amendments call for these benefits to be put into place immediately as funds come available by eliminating lower priority spending.
It's amazing how different the "big picture" is, compared to the NY Times "snapshot" or perhaps more accurately "potshot".
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Post by kl on Nov 17, 2009 7:31:30 GMT -4
And adding more. Over 17 million families, in America, do not have enough food. Just imagine, the billions, upon billions, being spent in failed occupations of Iraq, and Afghanistan, just a small portion of that being spent in the good old U.S.A., could have saved companies, small business', saved jobs, as well as created new ones... Where is the outrage folks? Billions being handed over to corporations to save their collective as$es, and they turn around, and state the huge bonus' that are going to be paid out, to keep their top performers.. (Let me see, your close to going out of business, due to some really flakey CDO swaps, the govt. gives you billions, and you want to pay a bonus)?
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Post by dej on Nov 17, 2009 9:32:24 GMT -4
Again, let's not forget the billions going the UN. That's why the NYT editorial is REALLY demonizing Coburn. His amendment, if allowed to come to the floor for debate and vote, would force Senators to take a stand on whether or not funding for the United Nations should be a higher priority than funding for disabled United States veterans. Apparently the Democrat leadership would prefer that their members not have to go on record showing their priority on those issues. The NYT is just trying to cover their backs (and backsides!) by trying to shift the focus to Coburn without tuly explaining why. Like you asked, "Where is the outrage folks?"
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Post by grova on Nov 17, 2009 9:49:45 GMT -4
And spending roughly 2 Billion a week in Iraq.
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Post by dej on Nov 17, 2009 10:03:37 GMT -4
And spending roughly 2 Billion a week in Iraq. I don't get it. Spending $2 billion a week in Iraq justifies making UN funding a higher priority than veteran's health care? That's what is behind the NYT editorial that started this discussion.
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Post by dej on Nov 17, 2009 10:05:51 GMT -4
And spending roughly 2 Billion a week in Iraq. By the way, I do happen to agree we waste a lot of money in Iraq, but that wasn't the topic that started the thread.
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Post by grova on Nov 17, 2009 11:18:05 GMT -4
Either was UN funding...I guess my point was the money we spend on the UN is but a drop in the bucket. By the time we finish paying for this war we could have fixed Social Security, health care and numerous other things here in the U.S. People complain about the stimulus plans but we're looking at about a 3 Trillion dollar bill for this war when its all said and done. With lots more going to health care for our vets. Which they deserve. I do agree with you that our vets should take precedence.
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Post by RobMoore on Nov 17, 2009 18:10:26 GMT -4
Oh, I almost missed the reference. I should have known. Its all Bush's fault. How could I forget?
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Post by hisea on Nov 17, 2009 22:33:09 GMT -4
Man child just tripled the deficit in his first year in office. Did I say that he reminds me of Jimmy Carter?
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Post by grova on Nov 17, 2009 23:29:16 GMT -4
Rob Moore....don't know if you were responding to me but if you really want to point figures, yes, GW did put us on a wrong path. Why did we invade Iraq? We've now spent billions...approaching trillions of dollars on a non sense war. There was no 9/11 connection. No nukes. Only old scores to settle and the hope of oil of which we're not even going to see. No bid contracts to companies that our vice president used to run...of which his stock shares went up 600%.
I've always felt the war in Afghanistan is the right fight....that's where we we're hit from. Somehow eight years later that's now Obama's fault as well. Why did we forget about that one? I mean that's where the whole "war on terror" started. Now the GOP is picking at our President about a "slow response" to call for more troops by the General in charge. Forgive me...but I would like him to think it through. If you actually do some reading, sending thousands of troops might not be the solution. We've fought an insurgent war decades ago (Vietnam) and if you look at your history books. Large troop concentrations don't always do the job. The Green Berrets working in small teams with the Montagnards we're more effective than company size units traipsing through the jungle as a big target. Smart bombs are great ,As long as you hit the target. If not you just piss off the locals and you'll never win them over.
Yet we get comments about a "man child" from Deep Sea". Seriously? Tripled the deficit? Well yeah..what would you expect him to do? If I remember right ,W passed the first stimulus package. But I guess its all Obama's fault that we're in debt. No...nothing to do with the housing fail...nothing to do with the 2 wars he inherited....nothing to do with anything else. Nope....just keep listening to Beck and Limbaugh for your opinions. Keep following you favorite talking heads talking points and believe what you will. Remember...those who forget the past are doomed too...oh never mind. We've already forgotten.
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Post by Water Lady on Nov 17, 2009 23:43:43 GMT -4
For a new guy, you sure are full of yourself here...I'd like to know from you when, at any time in the past did our government spend any money to "make whole" our social security or medicare programs???
War or no war - there has never been a time that I am aware of that our government has placed into INSTEAD OF taking from either of these programs (and many others.)
Where did you serve? What have you contributed? What are you doing to make it right?
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Post by misternuke on Nov 18, 2009 0:55:37 GMT -4
Either was UN funding...I guess my point was the money we spend on the UN is but a drop in the bucket. By the time we finish paying for this war we could have fixed Social Security, health care and numerous other things here in the U.S. People complain about the stimulus plans but we're looking at about a 3 Trillion dollar bill for this war when its all said and done. With lots more going to health care for our vets. Which they deserve. I do agree with you that our vets should take precedence. As a veteran of Desert Storm, Haiti (x2), Bosnia and Iraq (x2) I thank you for your support.... I'll be looking for it the next time I have to deploy. I'll trust that you are sincere in your support, and not just using veterans' issues to poke a political adversary in the eye. That would be a truly despicable thing to do, but I'm sure you already realize how easy it would be to see through such a sham, and so, wouldn't stoop so low. I know who my friends are.
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Post by kl on Nov 18, 2009 7:16:31 GMT -4
And if they did privatize Social Security as they tried several years ago, and that money was invested before the freefall? How would you respond whn grandma and grandpa were getting SS checks in the amount of -$5.00?
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Post by dej on Nov 18, 2009 11:03:15 GMT -4
Either was UN funding...I guess my point was the money we spend on the UN is but a drop in the bucket. I believe UN funding was behind the editorial. The fact the Coburn wants to reduce it some was probably was behind the hatchet job they wrote. The NYT is editorial board rarely openly writes it's true motives into an editorial when it targets a specific Rebubilcan.
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Post by kl on Nov 18, 2009 13:09:52 GMT -4
Cost overruns and war profiteering are hardly limited to Iraq, Afghanistan or active theaters of war. They are the very fabric of the U.S. war machine and the underpinning of the U.S. economy.
When President Obama signed the largest military budget in history Oct. 28 he stated: “The Government Accountability Office, the GAO, has looked into 96 major defense projects from the last year, and found cost overruns that totaled $296 billion.” This was on a total 2009 military budget of $651 billion. So almost half of the billions of dollars handed over to military corporations are cost overruns!
This is at a time when millions of workers face long-term systemic unemployment and massive foreclosures.
The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have now cost more than $1 trillion. The feeble health care reform bill that squeaked through the House, and might not survive Senate revisions next year, is scheduled to cost $1.1 trillion over a 10-year period.
The bloated, increasingly dysfunctional, for-profit U.S. military machine is unable to solve the problems or rebuild the infrastructure in Afghanistan or Iraq, and it is unable to rebuild the crumbling infrastructure in the U.S. It is unable to meet the needs of people anywhere.
It is absorbing the greatest share of the planet’s resources and a majority of the U.S. national budget. This unsustainable combination will sooner or later give rise to new resistance here and around the world.
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Post by kl on Nov 18, 2009 14:25:41 GMT -4
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Post by dej on Nov 18, 2009 19:28:17 GMT -4
You may have noticed that twelve out of thirteen families on the President's trip to Dover wanted no such photos or coverage. In fact, since Bush is no longer President, there is almost no interest in such coverage by the media. It sure seems like all the outcry to cover fallen soldiers was politcal, not the wishes of many soldiers families.
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Post by dej on Nov 18, 2009 19:46:58 GMT -4
Cost overruns and war profiteering are hardly limited to Iraq, Afghanistan or active theaters of war. They are the very fabric of the U.S. war machine and the underpinning of the U.S. economy. They are also hardly limited to defense spending. Such fraud seems to be in the very fabric of nearly every major government agency & program. Cost overruns and profiteering are found throughout our government, including Medicare/Medicaid, numerous HUD projects, foriegn aid programs, highway programs, etc. I can't even find a report on total estimate of fraud and waste within all the HUD programs but but it would be no surprise to me if it were a comparable percentage. Same for many of our foreign aid progams. CBS News (not Fox) reported a couple weeks ago Medicare fraud was estimated at $60 billlion. Medicaid fraud numbers are even harder to total, because methods of estimating them may vary from state to state. While the dollar amount of fraud for each ageny may be less than that of DoD, I'm pretty sure their total number would dwarf that of the DoD. If we have to fix the whole health care system in one fell swoop, shouldn't we also try to tackle these problems across the board in government? The price of these cost overruns and fraud throughout government would probably pay for the health care "reform" bill several times over, so why limit yourself to targeting jsut the Defense Dept, unless of course that really is your specific agenda for politcal or other reasons? That's a pretty weak argument against govt fraud and contractor overruns. As perverse is it sounds, how many millions more would be out of work if these corporations weren't making that money? These wars have been over an 8 year period. I seriously doubt, like many. that the final 10 year cost of the health care bill will be $1.1 trillion. I'm not aware of any 10 year estimate that has ever come close to the true final cost. Health care "reform" will probably cost as much as the war, have comparable levels of fraud, and health care will probably be reformed as much as the wars have reformed the Iraq and Afghanistan government. I can't think of any bloated, dysfunctional government program, or their contractors that have had broad success in meeting the needs of people on a large scale. The Defense Dept is hardly the lone one in that area. I'd be curious to see these stats from a credible, independent source, rather than some anti-military rant.
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Post by grova on Nov 18, 2009 19:58:21 GMT -4
I do agree that a lot of the no photo coverage was politicized. I also think when you ban or don't allow something you inevitably create a story. Though we don't need to see a body bag every night on TV. We do need to see the cost. And to misternuke... My post last night might have turned somewhat political but that was fueled by other comments and a little Mr. Daniels and I apologize if I came off in a bad light. Without our Democracy and Soldiers supporting that Democracy how else can we sit here and have dialogue and rants about each others views. With out what you and thousands of others do to protect what our country stands for and what it was founded on we would wouldn't be what we are. A giant melting pot of ideas and that's what makes us...well...us. As far as supporting our troops...other than words. I do a lot. In my job I've had the privilege of supporting and working with bands doing USO shows all over the world in different theaters of operations. Along with donations of instruments etc. A band I work with is doing a show coming up in D.C. Everyone should come out or make a donation. I'll be there. radiobase1.clearchannel.com/front/OpenContest.asp?Action=Login&SurveyID=39418&zx=589
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Post by dej on Nov 19, 2009 0:27:45 GMT -4
Grova, as someone who has been in the audience of a couple USO shows, I got to say they were always a great change from the normal routine in the tent cities at Al Jaber and PSAB where I attended them. My turn to say thank you for your part in providing shows.
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Post by grova on Nov 19, 2009 23:48:12 GMT -4
dej....thank you for your words but it aint close to what you, our friends/family and others do while serving. Like I said before...opinions equal freedom. And that's what makes us.
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