|
Post by shorti on Mar 13, 2007 15:17:36 GMT -4
I ran across an article online for Newsweek magazine about new discoveries in science about Darwin's Theory of Evolution. What really caught my eye was this question and some of the responses. What do you think? Is it possible that God or a higher power created life and gave them the tools to better themselves (evolve)? Is it possible that they walk hand in hand? Just wondering... www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17542627/site/newsweek/
|
|
|
Post by baycitydan on Mar 13, 2007 15:49:18 GMT -4
I completely side with science on this and my personal belief is that God/Jesus/Allah/Vishnu/etc are all old fairy tales meant to be used as law from a time when that was needed to keep the peace. I personally don't understand believing in something that is unproven and pretty ridiculous in that if you really consider the Bible as truth - the Earth is only a few thousand years old when we have definitive proof that it is millions of years old, for example. There's a bunch more examples, but I won't get into it. My reason for telling you my personal beliefs is not to start an argument, but to prove a point. I have no problem with religious people and would never consider a 'believer' as less of a person or unequal to me in any way. For that reason, it's completely possible to live side-by-side and it's possible to respect all opinions, even if the Newsweek story seems completely not plausible to me. Again, I don't want to start a religious thing here, just using it to show my side. As long as people aren't trying to push their beliefs on me, it's all cool.
|
|
|
Post by ljp on Mar 13, 2007 17:05:52 GMT -4
bcd, just when I was starting to like you.... The thing is neither belief: evolutionism or creationism has been 'proven'. Precisely why it is called "The THEORY of Evolution". Folks have long believed in carbon dating, which is the basis for determining a time line for life itself, as absolute fact. Carbon dating proved that a layer of ice in the Arctic was, I don't remember the actual # but something like 5 million years old, then 20 or so years later they found an airplane buried at the same level as the 5 million old ice. The way that scientists determine the age of a fossil is based on at what level of sediment the fossil was found, however the way that they determine the age of the sediment is by what fossil they found there. That is circular reasoning and makes no sense. I for one don't think I would call it "definitive proof". www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=73 Are we to truly believe that each 'life type' for lack of a better phrase, "split and split over and over again"? I guess that people have finally come up with an answer to the Christian question, "If we came from monkeys and fish, why are there still monkeys and fish?". Or which came first, the chicken or the egg? Check out: www.drdino.com Ken Hovind is a Science teacher that is a Christian and offers compelling 'scientific' arguments to the 'Theory' of Evolution. To answer the question of the poll: Yes and No. They have been co-existing since 1859 when Darwins book was published (although he was a Christian who recanted his 'story' on his deathbed, and the Genesis 'story' has been around for 6000 years). However they cannot be of the same thought or go hand in hand. It really is one or the other because: "In the beginning God created..."
|
|
|
Post by shorti on Mar 13, 2007 17:59:36 GMT -4
ljp - a theory in science is defined as a series of facts that has been tried and tried again with the same results... not really a theory like we think of it daily - newton has a theory about gravity and einstein created the theory of relativity based on or elaborating on newton's theory... but those theories are taught and believed in... I believe that there are valid arguments for both sides... Keep in mind the Genesis story is just that - a story with no facts or proof of it - yet many accept it on blind faith - keep in mind the Bible has been written by humans and translated and edited over thousands of years. Please don't think that I am "bashing" your beliefs because I don't believe in them as wholeheartedly as you and others. I have several questions about religion in general and believe that the Bible is subject to an individual's interpretation. What bothers me the most is those who judge others or tell others they are wrong for their way of thinking because it doesn't conform. Personally, I side with BCD on alot of things. However, I believe that there is a God/Higher Power/Divine Entity but there's too many questions and hypocricy(sp?) in religions to ive me the assurance of blind faith, because at the end of the day, that's what you have. I applaude those who believe in a particular religion; really I do, just don't expect everyone to agree...
|
|
|
Post by uvrays on Mar 13, 2007 18:32:08 GMT -4
Sure it can. Just don't try to jam your views down my throat.
|
|
|
Post by shorti on Mar 13, 2007 18:38:32 GMT -4
exactly, that's my thoughts... i won't throw mine - don't throw yours - deal... i've tried to learn about different religions, theories, etc and have learned alot - but respect everyone of them...
|
|
|
Post by ljp on Mar 13, 2007 18:41:06 GMT -4
shorti (I have always wondered why it isn't 'shortay' ), I agree with you in part. But the theory of evolution hasn't really been proven, it was tried and tried again based on the same science of radiometric dating, which has actually been proven wrong. It boggles me why this is a practice still in use. I have even heard some scientists say because they don't have anything better...um what??? Anyway, so the results will always come out the same if the basis of the research begins with incorrect data. "Like we think of it daily" - didn't at one time we as people thought daily that the world was flat? That was taught and believed it. Actually, (I think that I am getting in over my head here!) That science is so incorrect that, ok I was about to tell my plane story and realized I already had - see the above plane story. I am not sure at all what the theories of relativity and gravity have to do with the origins of man. You are right, Genesis, well at least the 1st chapter anyway, has never been scientifically proven (although, really, check out www.drdino.com .) Also, maybe do some reading on the history of the King James Bible. Its foundation began with the original Hebrew writings, then compared to the Greek translations then interpreted into English, by not one, not 2 but more than 40 different theological scholars in the 1600's. Each Godly man was given transcripts, time to pray and time to translate. Each one came up with a perfectly matching version to the other men. (I don’t know of 4 people who can agree on a place to eat dinner!) As a group they decided upon a compilation of 'books' that were in a majority agreement to create the Bible as we know it. There were a few other books like the book of Josephus and the book of Thomas that contradicted every other writing so they were not used. That was the only 'edit'. Then of course there were Wescott and Hort in the late 1800's but that is a whole other conversation! We just won’t talk about them! I don't think that you are bashing, it's your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it, you would be wrong but that's ok It is not my place to judge, a judge oversees a people and determines a sentence for wrongful actions and that is most certainly not my place. Religion itself is a man made item. Satanism is a religion. It's unfortunate that so many people think that ecumenical Christians are perfect and commit no wrong. I guess this is why it is so widely publicized when one does something wrong. (ie. Priests, Ted Haggard, Jim Baker, etc.) The only difference between you and I is that I have hope and a definitive understanding that there is much much more than this place we live now. You said: ..."give me the assurance of blind faith". If there were assurances would it still be faith? God said He created me, I believe it. He said He went to prepare a place for me, that is I disagreeurance. (I don't know why the board will not allow me to edit that I keep typing "that is my a*surance" and it won't change it... maybe it's the a*s?) If you want answers to any of the questions you have PM me and I will send you more reading material and research than you can read in a month’s time and can put you in touch with folks who know much much more than I.
|
|
|
Post by uvrays on Mar 13, 2007 18:52:28 GMT -4
Don't believe everything you read. From anybody.
|
|
|
Post by falgar25 on Mar 13, 2007 22:53:57 GMT -4
Religion and evolution have to coexist because shorti and ljp have to coexist. Each one is sure they are correct which also means that each one is sure that the other is being misled in their beliefs. The only way society can continue is if everyone respects each other's opinion and both sides agree to disagree.
Evolution is a theory based on a set of observations and a lack of evidence that the theory is wrong. That's how science is done: guess at how something works, then look for examples that prove or disprove your guess. The value of the theory is measured in how well it agrees with everyday observations.
Creationism/religion is based on faith. Faith is the belief in something even in the face of observations that contradict the belief. The value of faith is measured by how strongly someone clings to their belief when everyday observations contradict it.
For those who claim to be religious and who argue against evolution, how do you reconcile the fact that there are so many different religions with mutually exclusive beliefs? Take just the Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Mormon (LDS) religions. Sure, they all believe in a Creator, and supposedly it is the same Creator, but the Christion Creator had a son whose name was Christ, the Muslim Creator spoke through the prophet Mohammed, the Jewish Creator thinks they're both kinda confused, and the LDS Creator sent along Joseph Smith to try to explain things. If we look west we get to the Scientologists (not sure what they believe in) and if we go farther west (or to the far east) we get to religions that don't have any Creator at all. Each one is sure to have a set of books/writings that establish the religion. And, each one has chosen to exclude the books/writings that contradict the religion. There are these very basic differences in religions, yet today most religions have agreed to coexist.
I'm not trying to convince anyone not to have faith in their beliefs, just to explain the questions that go through my mind. Either I can spend all my time discussing/arguing about this, or I can accept that not everyone believes the same thing I do and that's OK. I don't have proof one way or another and neither does anyone else. The best we can do is to decide to get along.
Personally, I believe in evolution and believe that the way the world works can be explained scientifically; religion is just a way to explain things without doing the research. On the other hand, if there was a Creator, he/she/it would have to make the world work some way and this is it; science and theories are then just ways to explain things without accepting the existence of the Creator.
|
|
|
Post by ljp on Mar 14, 2007 12:11:22 GMT -4
Falgar you are absolutely right about coexisting that is what I was trying to say also. It is funny how you mention, (btw I always love to read your posts, you are always thought provoking and that leads to great conversations) that the value of the theory is measured in how well it agrees with everyday observations. As a Christian I see the world often times in a different light. I see God's hand in just about everything I see almost every single day. But non-Christians never understand what I mean when I say that. It's weird to me. There is a verse in the NT that tells about a conversation between Jesus and someone I don’t remember who off of the top of my head. He asks Jesus when he was telling the disciples to spread the Good News: " But what about those that we cannot reach, how will they know about you?" His answer was that He was in all things, in the trees in the mountains in the rivers in life itself because He created it. That God placed the desire for himself in all men.
One day my husband and I were sitting at Sandy Point on a beautiful day looking at the bridge and the bay, and he said something interesting. He said, "How can anyone believe that this happened by 'accident'. Beauty like this could only be created and by a specific design." It got me thinking about beauty and love and the likelihood of any of this occurring by anything other than design. From rivers, mountains, the reflection of the sun on the bay, the complexities of the human body to emotion even between species (if any of you have a dog you totally understand what I mean!), true love. The fact that a bumble bee by all physical aspects should not be able to fly although it does. They platypus which from what I understand no scientist has been able to determine from which fish or monkey it came from! It must be like a billion to one statistically that all of these things could have occurred naturally together. Jews, Christians, Muslim and LDS all begin at the same place and with the same God as I understand it. However each believes that the promised "Messiah" were different people. Christian Scientists are different than Scientology followers. They believe in one Creator and one Messiah however they do not believe in modern medicine only in healing through faith. Scientologists believe in a nutshell that L. Ron Hubbard is an alien sent from some other universe, and as long as you can pay enough you become that much more enlightened and educated. LDS I just will never really understand that one. Joseph Smith is a man who walks the earth and tells people what to do. Decides what is right and wrong for his followers (much like the Pope, don’t even get me started on that one! [sorry Catholics!])
The only Messiah that meets all of the requirements (by that I mean every prophesy in the OT which is the best selling book of all time and is used by most religions by most of the people in the world) is Jesus, Son of Mary (David's lineage). Even Muslims believed in a prophet that was human, lived and died about 400 years ago. The Christian Messiah meets the prophecy of a death, burial and physical resurrection. The Jews just don't believe that He has come yet. Which I never really understood, they know the OT like nobody's business, how is it they do not see who met the requirements of the coming Messiah?
Science is a way of explaining things is a way of not accepting that we are subject to a Creator is right. People don’t like to admit that they are ‘ruled’ by anyone and certainly don’t want it to be that way.
You are also right in that there is no ‘proof’ for any of the beliefs. There will never be any definitive proof to support The Big Bang, however we do believe that there will be someday proof of our Creator. The last book in the Bible talks of visions sent to John while imprisoned on Patmos (sp?) which apparently are the same visions sent to Ezekial and to David. To Christians this will be our proof. There are already circumstances in the world today that point to that direction. For now, it is only faith.
I have friends that are nurses who tell strange tales of people as they die. Conversations with folks who have long passed on, beautiful lights and burning flames – that by the way even as a Believer totally freaks me out!! (this is part of what I was saying earlier about seeing God in everything). . I much rather would like to have hope and faith that this existence does not end at physical death.
Wow I am a bad poster, I just typed a pageful and I hate it when others give me too much to read, sorry!
|
|
|
Post by shoreterp on Mar 14, 2007 12:50:30 GMT -4
I completely side with science on this and my personal belief is that God/Jesus/Allah/Vishnu/etc are all old fairy tales meant to be used as law from a time when that was needed to keep the peace. I personally don't understand believing in something that is unproven and pretty ridiculous in that if you really consider the Bible as truth - the Earth is only a few thousand years old when we have definitive proof that it is millions of years old, for example. There's a bunch more examples, but I won't get into it. My reason for telling you my personal beliefs is not to start an argument, but to prove a point. I have no problem with religious people and would never consider a 'believer' as less of a person or unequal to me in any way. For that reason, it's completely possible to live side-by-side and it's possible to respect all opinions, even if the Newsweek story seems completely not plausible to me. Again, I don't want to start a religious thing here, just using it to show my side. As long as people aren't trying to push their beliefs on me, it's all cool. Couldn't have said it any better myself. Well said
|
|
|
Post by bchevy on Mar 14, 2007 20:59:33 GMT -4
Way too Heavy for me. Too each his own and leave me alone. My maker knows how good I am and will take care of me when it's my turn.
|
|
|
Post by shorti on Mar 15, 2007 11:03:45 GMT -4
ljp - I think my belief isn't coming across quite right. I believe in God. I question the Messiah being Jesus Christ, not saying that I've completely ruled that out, I question. I have a hard time believing that (according to Christianity) Jesus died for all our sins & if we accept Jesus into our hearts, we will be forgiven & allowed into heaven. What about serial killers, Manson, etc? What if, they accept Jesus into their hearts and ask for forgiveness... they'll be allowed to sit next to St. Peter? Come on... that's a bit of a stretch don't ya' think? I believe there is the presence of God in everything as well... You also mention Joseph Smith and relate him to the Pope as well... How is that any different than any other religious leader? The purpose of sermon is to tell the parish what they should and should not do... All religions judge; probably my biggest issue; Catholics say since I'm divorced, I've sinned and can never be remarried in their church again; Jewish won't accept you if you convert as much as they accept someone born to a Jewish Mother; Mormons... I don't even know where to start "what happens in the temple stays in the temple"?? Missionaries... caffeine is a sin... way to left field for me...; Lutherans - one step below Catholics but not as extreme; Southern baptist - well... if you've ever been to one of those Sunday services... u know; Muslims; Buddist; Hindus; Masons... on and on... I do have one question... do you believe in karma/past lives???
|
|
|
Post by uvrays on Mar 15, 2007 11:20:20 GMT -4
BChevy. I agree.
|
|
|
Post by andrewd on Mar 15, 2007 14:39:08 GMT -4
I really don't care what anyone believes. The only people that I have a problem with is anyone that knocks on my door trying to push their beliefs on me. Anyone else though, as long as whatever you believe in helps you get through the day, then great. Sometimes I wish that I had it in me to just 'believe' and not look into how implausible it is (in my view).
"ljp", I always had kind of the same reasoning for not believing in a God that you have for believing in one. I have been to some really horrible places in the world and each time it confirmed my belief that "how could there be a God because of what is going on here". Some things going on in the world as far as pain and suffering make me strongly believe that God is nothing but a fairy tale, or a twisted being that likes to cause wars, pain, and suffering. It's just another side to that argument.
|
|
|
Post by ljp on Mar 15, 2007 14:50:12 GMT -4
Hey shorti, (dude I am so glad this hasn't turned ugly, most conversations about religion do!) re: the forgiveness and access to heaven. Yes it is a hard pill to swallow that any person who confesses their sins to God and requests the free forgiveness allowed because of the death of the last sacrificial lamb (Jesus) is granted 'access'. But God said that all sin is equal. There aren't different levels of severity of sin, although some make us cringe when we hear of it, all of it makes God cringe. If He is able to forgive me for the pack of gum I stole from the 7'eleven when I was 10, then isn't this all powerful creator of the universe able to forgive Jeffery Dahmer? It sucks to think that I might some day be spending eternity with the humanly evils of that man, but God told me not to judge others, that this is reserved for Him. I may not like it, much like a child doesn’t like the fact that they can’t have a candy bar every time mom goes through the check out line at the store. God (the Father) knows best. If I thought that there was a chance that there were sins which could not be forgiven, would I ever ask for it after the life I’ve lived? Not likely. The Bible says “Confess and you will be forgiven” that is all I need to know. Re: Joseph Smith and / the Pope: the difference is that no earthly man was given the responsibility of determining what was right and wrong for the people. That is solely God’s place. (Again sorry Catholics). The Pope literally determines what the Catholics laws are based on what society dictates at that time. Loosely based on doctrine. God’s Word does not change, neither should his laws. A preacher’s job is to be a shepherd that guides and a teacher that educates and that is it. He is not a judge or lawmaker. The purpose of sermon is not to tell a congregation what they should and should not do. It is to tell them what God wants for them based on God’s Word not his. Yes some religions do judge. This is why I said earlier that religion is a man made invention. I really have a lot of issues with the Catholic religion as a whole because they do not live according to doctrine but by rituals. No where and I mean absolutely no where in the Bible does it say that God will not accept you as a married couple if you remarry. Yes God does hate divorce but He also loves marriage, He created it. There is a verse in the Mathew ch. 19 that tells of a time where Moses gave someone the ok to divorce and they were asking Jesus about it. His response was [paraphrase] that Moses(who at the time was given authority to introduce God’s laws, since they were new and those people have never heard this before) because of the hardness of the peoples hearts allowed couples to divorce. It wasn’t right, but the people didn’t know at the time how wrong they were. So Jesus says: if he divorces his wife because of any reason other than infidelity and marries another then he causes her to commit adultery which goes against Gods law (the 10 commandments) and then also anyone who marries the wife. So really the sin is the divorce. Basically those people wanted a divorce because they were too hard headed to work out their problems. It is more about DON’T GET DIVORCED vs. don’t remarry . There are certain situations in which God will allow divorce, adultery, abuse, different spiritual beliefs. The problem with the Catholic religion is that they say if you have sinned you can’t make it right (by remarrying) but that is contradictory to the Confession. (Although confessing to priests is not biblical only confession to Him) isn’t that what confession is for?? To be cleansed by asking for forgiveness? So yea I don’t get Catholics at all. “Missionaries... caffeine is a sin...” That one is a new one to me! Southern Baptist (watch it here is my category!) “I do have one question... do you believe in karma/past lives???” No. The bible says that” To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”. It says that we are fearfully and wonderfully made by a perfect creator. Why would he need to “re-create’ us? He is perfect, He did it right the first time. Oh btw I forgot this earlier: “…we are justified by faith “(Romans 5) AND www.godsaidmansaid.com/topic3.asp?Cat2=244&ItemID=710talks about Darwin statement that: “ If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down”. Then 35 years later DNA was discovered. More www.godsaidmansaid.com/topic3.asp?Cat2=244&ItemID=810“One of the great questions of human existence is whether we are smart enough to figure out how our brain works.” How did your brain, with its colossal cognitive skills, its automatic pilot, its built-in functions such as an on-board pharmacy, movie theater, memory bank, sight, hearing, taste, and touch senses, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., just mindlessly evolve out of nothing? The answer, of course, is it did not. It could not. Science writer Frank Sherwin recorded these words about the odds of evolution: “There would be a better chance of winning a lottery everyday for the next century,” [End of quote]. It could be said another way: a person winning the lottery for 36,500 consecutive days. Andrew: God never promised us a world without pain or evil. Earlier I said that as a Christian I see the world in a different way. In most situations I can see that with the absence of sin, would have been the absence of pain. People don't often look at what exactly their actions cause. Could Madeleine Murray O'hare really have seen that by pushing an agenda of 'no prayer in schools' in the 60's would eventually turn 8th graders into murders 30 years later? Or that a pedofile who decided to not exercise a little self control to strange impulses would create 100 more people just like him? There are consequences to every action that we as humans make.
|
|
|
Post by shorti on Mar 16, 2007 10:41:53 GMT -4
ljp - 1st - yes I agree I'm glad this hasn't been ugly but intelligent - 2nd - my Dad is Southern Baptist... no offense meant... but some of the sermons are pretty intense! 3rd - we are definitely agreed in the Catholic respect... 4th - i applaud your ability to have faith... and i respect that...basically here's my "typical" response - no matter what you believe in, if you truly believe it and follow to the best of your ability... i respect that - really i do...
|
|
|
Post by ljp on Mar 16, 2007 12:06:43 GMT -4
Re: 2nd if you want to see intense you should see some of the things I have seen in the south! I used to travel A LOT and saw some snake handlers in Scottsboro, AL. It was to say the least....ok I can't even say interesting it was just plain creepy! Re: 4th faith and hope in something eternal is a wonderful thing.
All all God's people said"amen"...shortay.
|
|