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Post by Ginny on Aug 26, 2006 19:41:15 GMT -4
I just read an old post where someone said that they didn't think that it was possible to support our troops AND disagree with the war at the same time. I am here to tell you that not only is it possible, it is imperative. Here's several reasons why: Most young people go into the military because they are from working class families who can not afford college, medical insurance, etc. They would end up in minimum wage jobs that will get them nowhere. The military offers to fully cover your day to day living expenses, medical coverage, life insurance and monies for college. Others join because they have a sense of duty and pride in their country. With others it is a family tradition. My family is fourth generation Marine Corp. Their reasons for joining are a combination of all of the above. If our country were in danger (real or conceived) our troops are the ones that volunteered to put themselves in harms way, to put our lives before their own. They do not start wars, or choose them. They go where ever they are told at the will of our president. Support our troops??? HELL YES we should support our troops and be very thankful that they are there for us. Put aside the fact that this war (or any war for that matter) stinks, and be appreciative and respectful for the guys and gals that choose to protect our country no matter the risk involved. The next time you see someone in uniform, say thank you for serving, it will make their day.
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Post by ljp on Aug 30, 2006 20:54:22 GMT -4
Better yet, if you know of any one away from home serving in this effort, send them mail. It is like gold to a soldier. (you don't have to support the effort to support the people)
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Post by highlander73 on Aug 30, 2006 22:56:26 GMT -4
They would end up in minimum wage jobs that will get them nowhere. Be careful not to paint people into a corner. Anyone can do anything if they set their mind to it.
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Post by bchevy on Aug 31, 2006 6:15:00 GMT -4
They would end up in minimum wage jobs that will get them nowhere. Be careful not to paint people into a corner. Anyone can do anything if they set their mind to it. I stopped reading when I got to the minimun wage line, totally clueless is the person who would make that comment. Support BOTH, it needed done whether you like it or not. (better now?)
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Post by Ginny on Aug 31, 2006 17:35:50 GMT -4
I resent being called clueless because I stated that without a college education most would end up in minimum wage jobs. Maybe some would get lucky enough to make a few dollars more than minimum wage but there are not many oppurtunities for those who cannot afford to continue their education beyond high school. I don't care how motivated a person is it is difficult and rare that without help of some kind a child from a working class family can go on to achieve a high level of financial security. I always tried to teach my children that they can do anything they set their mind to but with limited resources available to many in the working class the military is a considerable option. Also, bcchevy should learn not to call others clueless when he can't even write using proper English. You used the wrong homophone in the line "support Both, it needed done weather you like it or not." Whether would have been the word you should have used. Just pointing out that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. You could have disagreed without personally attacking me. I also said "most" who join the military in my post, not all. Remember that I said that we come from a military family so we have had friendships and conversations with many in the military over the years and that seemed to be a popular reason for joining. Regardless of the reasons I stated for people joining the military my point was that the troops need and deserve our support.
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Post by bchevy on Aug 31, 2006 21:07:11 GMT -4
Resent it all you want, excuse me for my grammar. No college grad here but doing fine without it. Your comment about "They would end up in minimum wage jobs that will get them nowhere." is just a poor choice of commentary.
I too come from a military family and would never come to that conclusion of our military personell. I certainly wouldn't put it in print if I did. I take a dim view of your statement, it's very demeaning. Why not say: SUPPORT OUR TROOPS IT'S THE BEST JOB THEY CAN GET. ?
At least it looks like we can agree that they need our support. The reason for their service has nothing to do with it.
Some of our armed services VOLUNTEERS may actually want to protect our country..........
Funny how the best comeback you have for me is my use of english...... there's more for ya to check now.
there's only one "C", bchevy ;D
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Post by highlander73 on Sept 6, 2006 22:05:06 GMT -4
The Bushies want to keep them there in harms way for a pointless cause and political gain. That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. Do you REALLY think the president, commander in chief wants to see soldiers harmed? I fail to see how you can support anyone while stating what they chose (yes CHOSE) to do for a living is futile and in vain. I also seemed to have missed your proposed solution that has the troops exiting the country without throwing the whole region into chaios.
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Post by serving on Sept 23, 2006 13:58:31 GMT -4
I don't think that anyone in this country, on either side of the isle, doesn't wish our troops well.
Absolutely not true. Troops that I was serving with in Baghdad actually got "hate mail" from liberals.
As for my troops, of 10 assigned, ALL had at least an associates, 6 had their Bachelors' and 3 of them had Masters degrees.
Even so, it's not uncommon for vets to be able to get VERY high paying jobs once they get out, using just the training Uncle Sam gave them.
As for my family, Mom's a bank vice-president and Brother's an attorney.....so we're not all trailer-trash either, as you probably think.
After 15 years on active duty, I'm now a drilling reservist and doing quite nicely, thank you very much.
In other words, you can take your condescending preconceived notions about me and my troops and stick them where the sun don't shine.
BTW, I don't want your support if you don't want me to win.
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Post by falgar25 on Sept 23, 2006 14:49:06 GMT -4
For "server": You have to admit the majority of those in the military don't have degrees. Your troops didi: that's great, but I know many more who do not.
Absolutely not. There's no way the president wants to see soldiers harmed. That's not the point. The point is the President and the administration wants to proceed with the war in Iraq, to do that there need to be troops in Iraq, and that is a dangerous place to be. The President doesn't want to see troops harmed, but they will continue to be harmed as long as they are there.
I'm willing to bet there are very few military members who signed up specifically to go to Iraq (we can argue "futile" and "vain" later). I'll bet they signed up to defend us and our country by going into harm's way if that is what the Commander in Chief directs them to do. They don't get to choose the conflicts they take part in, they trust the command chain to send them where they are needed. They agreed to follow orders that take them into harm's way in order to protect us and our country so that we could sit at home and chat about it on the internet.
So argue against the war in Iraq if you feel it is wrong. Take that up with your representatives in Congress or straight to the President if that's your choice. But support the troops, they are doing what we asked them (through the President) to do so that we don't have to do it ourselves.
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Post by Ginny on Sept 27, 2006 9:47:07 GMT -4
For Server- I never in anyway meant to imply that only low class trailer trash join the military. My husband also now makes a very good living off of the training he received in the Marine Corp. My son is now in college full time using the GI bill he earned in the Marine Corp. I only wanted to point out a few of the reasons people join the military. I included pride of our country, sense of duty, family tradition and the lure of paid college expenses. By the way I don't think that working class people would be equated with "trailer trash". Our middle class is disappearing in this country and many of us are more "working class". That doesn't make us bad people. As falgar25 said, I believe you can think the war is a mistake all you want but that is a political matter. The guys and gals serving are following orders and should be commended and respected for putting their lives in harms way for us. My original point was just that. Would the same people who are blaming and not supporting the troops be against them if someone invaded our country again? I think not. All I ever wanted to do was to point out that as Americans we should thank our lucky stars that there are people willing to join the military to defend us, no matter where they are sent or why. Thank you for your service to our country, I for one appreciate it.
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Post by Guest on Sept 27, 2006 12:44:26 GMT -4
And theirs the rub. Should we thank the waitress for serving our drinks, and letting her know how proud we are that she's working there? Or when you get gas, go and thank the attendant for being there? They joined the Arrmy, the Marines, the Navy. There was no draft. And I'm sorry to say, war is a part of their job. You paint with a broad brush there. Liberals, huh? We're either for them or against them huh? What's the wage of a private? $14,000 a year? Below poverty my friends. I have nothing against the troops. But they are only doing the job that they're paid to do.
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Post by falgar25 on Sept 27, 2006 13:36:32 GMT -4
And theirs the rub. Should we thank the waitress for serving our drinks, and letting her know how proud we are that she's working there? Or when you get gas, go and thank the attendant for being there? They joined the Arrmy, the Marines, the Navy. There was no draft. And I'm sorry to say, war is a part of their job. You paint with a broad brush there. Liberals, huh? We're either for them or against them huh? What's the wage of a private? $14,000 a year? Below poverty my friends. I have nothing against the troops. But they are only doing the job that they're paid to do. I do thank the waitress for bringing me my drinks. She's only doing the job she's being paid for, but I'm glad she's there to do it. I haven't interacted with a gas station attendant in a long time (pay at the pump works for me) but late at night when I need gas to get home, I'm very thankful to find an open station. I also thank doctors, firefighters, and Coast Guard personnel for doing what they do. I can't imagine myself saying, "Stop whining about the heat, just put the fire out like you're getting paid to do!" OK, don't like that argument, try this one: consider the strangers who have servered you in some way in the last week. Now imagine they no longer did what they do. How thankful would you be to find the one person who would still be willing to do some of those things? Imagine if no one would serve you your drinks. Imagine if no one would open that gas station for you. Imagine if there was no one to fix your electricity or repair your DVD player, or pump out your septic tank, or get your car running again ...... Imagine if those in the military suddenly agreed with you that the pay was too little and they all quit. What would happen then? Does low pay mean a job isn't worth doing? Maybe taking a job in the face of low pay says something about the dedication of those who would take a particular job. Does anyone think a teacher's salary is high, or even adequate? Would you tell a teacher to stop complaining about the pay and the hours since, after all, they chose to take that job? Or would you be thankful that someone is there to teach your child?
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Post by Guest on Sept 28, 2006 7:49:22 GMT -4
You're missing the point again. I served in the army. Was in the Gulf back in 1991. I joined up at the age of 30. I've had low paying jobs. Heck, my first job was at the minimum wage of $1.65 an hour. The point that I'm trying to make is, just because there's war, and the troops are over there fighting, why do we shine a spotlight on them? Why point fingers, and accuse one another, when we, as the American people, should stand up, and shout at this administration: Support Our Troops!!!!!!!!! Don't send anymore reservists, regular army, national guard troops over there, until you can eqip them properly. With proper flak jackets, proper armoured vehicles, proper training, and proper support. Not only while there serving, but also when they return, the support should continue. Medial care, mental care, family support, employment support. Support our troops by asking exactly what the plan is. Instead of sending them back for their 3rd and 4th tour, tell us when you plan to rotate them back home to stay.
The major point is it's about time, we the people, must stand up straight and proud, and let this president, and his administration know that we've had enough with the false stories.
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Post by falgar25 on Sept 28, 2006 9:45:18 GMT -4
If I missed your point, it may be due to statements such as: "I have nothing against the troops. But they are only doing the job that they're paid to do."
You ask, "just because there's war, and the troops are over there fighting, why do we shine a spotlight on them?" It's precisely because there is a war that we shine a spotlight on them. It's only natural; we rarely appreciate those who do things for us until we really need them. But why question the attention? Why not take advantage of it? If your point is that the troops should be supported with better equipment, then use the visibility they are now enjoying to make that point.
As for your major point, we have the midterm elections this year and the Presidential elections in 2008.
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Post by Steve on Sept 28, 2006 11:48:02 GMT -4
At least we are all talking about the enlisted and commissioned men and women of our armed forces and debating the war.
I'm a former enlisted Marine who served in the 1980s and joined for basically all of the reasons stated well by Ginny. I also took advantage of veteran's benefits and went to college on a veterans program. One thing I still remember is how totally disconnected the majority of folks were from the military. Most folks blandly stated that - well, all you learned was how to kill people, or you just couldn't handle college - these were typical responses. Until we have a draft there will most likely a continuation of the distance between those who serve and those who don't.
The debate on the war on terror, Afghanistan and Iraq, is critically important for our democracy (sorry for being dramatic). The last presidential campaign the Bush camp painted citizens who dared to question our government decision making as siding with the enemy. That was dead wrong. A good citizen and patriot will debate and question his or her government for the truth every day - especially during wartime when the stakes are so high. Some friends were recently debating the Iraq war and even after I pressed him for his opinion a Naval officer/pilot kept out of it except to say that the reason why he risked his life is so that we CAN have the debate.
The civilian leadership of the military is based in our Constitution and is one of the foundations of our democracy. (Look to the military coup in Thailand for reasons to be proud of our system.)
It also comes with great responsibilities - the military command must obey the orders of the civilians in the administration absolutely, while the government leaders giving the orders must maintain mutual and complete respect for those serving in uniform and whose lives are at stake. The men and women in uniform cannot question their military or civilian command without risking a court martial. But citizens can and must keep the spotlight on the government so that all decisions are for the good of our country while also maintaining the balance of power and remaining legal. The wounded troops I've visited at Walter Reed Army hospital deserve an open and honest government.
The bottom line - you can support the troops while exercising your constitutional rights as citizens.
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