|
Post by pete1 on Jul 15, 2009 3:42:47 GMT -4
Sun Papers 7/14/09......... Two A.A.Co.Police went to a house at the request of a unknown hospital employee due to a patient leaving the hospital without being discharged. ( not a crime) According to Police the husband would not cooperate with their orders, attempted to assault one of the Cops, and was shot in his house by the second. The husband was transported to shock trauma in critical condition. Police are vague with their press releases.
|
|
|
Post by RobMoore on Jul 15, 2009 6:55:26 GMT -4
Need more details. I see two separate arguments here. 1. Should they have been dispatched in the first place 2. Was is a legitimate use of lethal force.
For #2, I can't judge based off the little information given, but I don't necessarily think a negative response to #1 automatically makes #2 a "no" answer. They were dispatched there and things went bad. Blame the duty supervisor who sent them there.
|
|
|
Post by AquaHolic on Jul 15, 2009 7:18:21 GMT -4
Sun Papers 7/14/09......... Two A.A.Co.Police went to a house at the request of a unknown hospital employee due to a patient leaving the hospital without being discharged. ( not a crime) According to Police the husband would not cooperate with their orders, attempted to assault one of the Cops, and was shot in his house by the second. The husband was transported to shock trauma in critical condition. Police are vague with their press releases. There is way more to this story. Police are very vague and I think they went way over board. After the murdering of the boy with scissors by the AA police I could have sworn that they now have access to bean bags... ?? Its strange how they now have access to them and never use them.
|
|
|
Post by shoregurrl on Jul 15, 2009 8:48:05 GMT -4
I do not believe that they should have been dispatched in the first place, unless there's some twist in this story that they haven't informed the public about.
Which makes the shooting completely unnecessary...
|
|
|
Post by foiiinobody on Jul 15, 2009 8:57:45 GMT -4
The Sheriffs department normally handles warrant type issues, but this almost sounds like the health care worker assisted the patient's ability to leave the hospital (speculation only). Most AACoPD officers now carry the taser... so its interesting to see that someone was shot with a service weapon, and not tased.
|
|
|
Post by kl on Jul 15, 2009 9:16:29 GMT -4
Anne Arundel Police Shoot Suspect Contributor: Dave Clark Email: clark@wmar.com Last Update: 7/13 1:41 pm Related Links
* More Local Crime Stories
Anne Arundel County police say an officer shot an Arnold man threatening to hit another officer with a chair.
Anne Arundel Medical Center officials asked police to go to the 50-year-old man's home in the 1000 block of Deep Creek Avenue around 9 p.m. Sunday after his wife was treated for unspecified injuries.
Police say the man became belligerent, told officers to leave and hit them. That's when police say the man picked up a chair, raised it toward one officer and the officer's partner shot the man.
The man was taken to Shock Trauma with injuries that were serious but not life-threatening.
(Copyright 2009 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.) Copyright 2009 The E.W. Scripps Co. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
|
|
|
Post by RobMoore on Jul 15, 2009 10:20:43 GMT -4
If those are the facts of the case, then I'd say the only question left is "Was it necessary for them to be there?"
Obvisouly this depends on the type of chair, but I'd say you could "brain" someone hard enough with a typical wooden kitchen chair to cause serious injury or death. Sounds like a legitimate shoot to me.
Whether they should have been there or not, they were dispatched and they went. Once there, you have to deal with the situation you're given.
I don't think its beyond the realm of possibility that this was a domestic abuse situation.
|
|
|
Post by hawkeye on Jul 15, 2009 15:10:30 GMT -4
According to the AA Co. press release the man assaulted both officers then raised a wooden dining room chair over the head of one of the officers who was on the floor. Fearing that the officer was in imminent danger , the other officer fired his service weapon and struck the assailant. If thats the case then ABSOLUTLEY it was a good shoot..it dosent really matter why they were there...
|
|
|
Post by speedergurl68 on Jul 15, 2009 16:30:14 GMT -4
and had the police not been called out and gone to this woman's home (if it was, indeed, a case of domestic abuse) and this maniac had killed her (which is COMPLETELY within the realm of possibilities if he was abusive) you would have those screaming "WHY DIDN'T SOMEONE DO SOMETHING?" ...well, consider something done. The moral of this story? If you don't want to get shot by the police, don't raise a chair over your head and threaten them.
They were sent out on a call. They responded. They were threatened. They shot him and didn't kill him. Good Shoot.
|
|
|
Post by cheapshotartist on Jul 15, 2009 16:55:24 GMT -4
I think it is kind of hard to judge something like this unless your actually there. Not really enough details for me to make a decision.
|
|
|
Post by linda712 on Jul 15, 2009 17:04:49 GMT -4
Oh, I don't know.....there seems to be enough second, third, and fourth-hand speculation to make an opinion that one wouldn't hestitate to hypothosize about here.
|
|
|
Post by pete1 on Jul 15, 2009 17:23:09 GMT -4
Rob Moore......... I think you hit the nail on the head. Were the Cops acting on the authority of the department , or that of the Hospital? It's not against the law to leave the hospital. So why did the Cops go to his house? One reason could be that Hospitals hire off duty Cops as their security guards. I's a conflict of interest for Cops to be security guards during off duty hours........ I was not there, but I'll bet my money the Cops were told to get out of the house by the husband before the fight started. Two things for sure: 1- The power of the badge belongs solely to the citizens. 2- When it's a good sooting the Department puts the information out in detail.
|
|
|
Post by falgar25 on Jul 15, 2009 20:08:03 GMT -4
How about this; under what circumstances is it OK for an officer to stand by while his partner is beaten with a chair? Or, under what circumstances can I take a chair and beat someone with it?
Did the cops have a really good reason to be in the house? I don't have a clue, but it really doesn't matter. When the man began attacking the cops, he began asking for trouble. When he gambled that he could take a chair and beat a cop with it, he made a bet that turned out poorly for him.
|
|
|
Post by pete1 on Jul 15, 2009 21:56:07 GMT -4
flagar25....It does matter why the police were in the house. If they were not invited in, and didn't have a warrant, the Cops are the bad guys. Who threw the first punch, and for what reason is the question. Was the order the man didn't obey a lawful order? Citizens are only compelled by law to obey a lawful order. Talk to the young people, and the nobodies about Cops violating their rights when it comes to entering their home or vehicle..... Most Cops are good guys, but some are not. I was not there, but I'll bet my money the Cops instigated the problem.
|
|
|
Post by shoregurrl on Jul 15, 2009 22:24:20 GMT -4
\ 2- When it's a good sooting the Department puts the information out in detail. This is very true.
|
|
|
Post by goobastank on Jul 16, 2009 6:24:53 GMT -4
The Press Release from AACo PD website (link at bottom of post): EASTERN DISTRICT OFFICER INVOLVED SHOOTING ARNOLD On July 12, 2009, at approximately 8:30 p.m., officers from the Anne Arundel County Police Department responded to 1026 Deep Creek Avenue in Arnold for a check subject at the request of the Anne Arundel Medical Center. Upon arrival, officers made contact with the husband and advised that they were there to check on the status of his wife. The husband did not comply, became belligerent with the presence of the officers and demanded that the officers leave the residence. He assaulted both officers. At one point, he grabbed a wooden, dining room chair and raised it over the head of one of the officers, who was on the floor. Fearing that the officer was in imminent danger of serious injury, the other officer fired his service weapon and struck the assailant, which ended the attack. The suspect was taken via ambulance to Shock Trauma in Baltimore with non-life threatening injuries. Both officers sustained minor injuries during the incident and were treated and released from Anne Arundel Medical Center. Police have filed charges of 2nd Degree Assault (2 counts), Failure to Obey Lawful Order and Resisting Arrest. Suspect: Michael Anthony Housley, 51, of 1026 Deep Creek Avenue, Arnold, MD. www.aacounty.org/Police/PressReleases/Resources/July_2009/AACOPD_PR_20090713-2.pdf
|
|
|
Post by goobastank on Jul 16, 2009 6:44:25 GMT -4
Now, there's obviously more to this than what were reading, but we weren't there, so how would we know?
It occurs more frequently than you might think that the police receive calls from the hospitals to check the welfare of patients who left prematurely. Usually those patients have been involved in a traumatic event or are in danger of a future medical episode, thus the request from the hospital to check their welfare.
The request from a hosptial to check the welfare is treated no differently than a concerned neighbor calling 911 after hearing a heated argument next door. When police arrive, it is their duty to verify the well being of every known person in the household. Quite often when police arrive, we are told that everything is ok when there is actually something very serious going on behind the door. It is up to officers on the scene to determine if, in fact, everything is fine or if there is something more going on. I have come across many domestic abuse cases in this type of call.
As far as the shoot, I can only say what I would do as a police officer in a similar situation, since we were not there and do not know all the details. If anyone, officer or civilian, is in imminent danger of serious bodily harm, it is my duty to remove that threat... and I will do that using whatever means, and no more, than is necessary at the time.
As far as non-lethal alternatives (bean bags and tasers), not all AACo PD officers carry tasers; and in a situation like this, even if bean bags were available, the officers will not take the time to run out to the trunk of their vehicle and retrieve the bean bag rounds and shotgun, then return... all while someone is ready to "brain" (good word) another human being with a chair.
Hope this provides a little understanding.
|
|
|
Post by pete1 on Jul 16, 2009 18:44:24 GMT -4
goobastank.................If you are a cop you should know that information from 911 is not probable cause in its self. Anyone can call 911, and say anything. The Hospitals don't call the Cops when the illegals are treated at the taxpayers expanse......When the the husband told the Cops to leave they are required to do so. There had been no crime committed in the presence of the Cops. It's not against the law to be belligerent to the Police, especially when there has been no crime committed, and they are in your house refusing to leave...........We don't know the whole story because the Cops are not telling it. Just read their report. When not at fault they can't wait to blast it all over the news.
|
|
|
Post by falgar25 on Jul 16, 2009 19:31:24 GMT -4
I wonder how this thread would be different if the police had not entered the house.
A woman goes into the hospital with what are clearly injuries sustained during a beating, yet she will not admit that. The hospital would like to keep her overnight for observation but she checks herself out after a visit by her very angry husband. Fearing for the woman's safety, the hospital reports the situation to the police.
The police go to the house and ask to speak to the woman. The irate and belligerent husband refuses to allow the police to speak to his wife and orders the police out of the house. Following the advice in this thread, the police politely tip their hats to the husband and leave.
Now what would you all say if the article in the morning told how after the police left, the husband went upstairs and finished the job he had started earlier in the day? Would we all be writing how it is such a pity the woman was killed but hey, the police did everything they could for her? Or, would we be Censored Bad Word Hereing about how the police should have reacted to what was obviously happening and demanded to speak to her and possibly remove her to safety?
|
|
|
Post by RobMoore on Jul 16, 2009 20:01:39 GMT -4
I hate to justify the means with the ends. I'm not up to speed on MD law enough to make a call on "should or shouldn't" have ignored the husband's wishes, but ....and I speak hypothetically, if the husband had legal standing to order the police to leave, what illegal actions could have occurred afterward, while tragic, don't affect my opinion. If they were lawfully requested to leave, they should have....and that line is one I'd expect them to know as officers. Again, I don't know the particulars here, just speaking on the "what if".
A citizen should have the right to order police out of his home IF they have no legal authority to refuse. However, right or not, going Ike Turner on a cop is not a smart thing to do.
|
|
|
Post by goobastank on Jul 16, 2009 22:57:50 GMT -4
I realize that information from a 911 call is not probable cause. Probable cause is only needed to make an arrest. Probable Cause is not needed to knock on a door. I also realize that if officers are dispatched to a call, then it is their duty to investigate to the fullest extent possible.
We could go on and on: did the husband let them in, or did they force their way in? If he let them in, did he refuse to let them check on the wife? Did they make contact with the wife at any point? Did he request they leave or did he fly off the handle right away? If he requested, did they turn toward the door to comply or did they try to investigate further? If they tried to investigate further, were they respectful or did they fire the husband up? (Yes, I admit there are too many cops out there who have horrible social skills)
Too many questions are left unanswered.
I know that if I were requested to leave but something seemed amiss, I would continue to investigate until all options were exhausted, then I would take my leave. Again, I have come across many situations where if I had left when requested to leave without asking any further question on my way out, I would have missed many situations where people were in danger.
Again, noone knows the whole story but those who were there.
|
|
|
Post by pete1 on Jul 16, 2009 23:41:45 GMT -4
Googastank.........Probable cause means more than mere suspicion. Except for a few misdemeanors probable cause is needed for felony's not committed in the presence of the Police. What crime were these cops investigating? The Cops aren't saying. Why?......... If the two Policeman in Centreville were acting within the scope of the law rather than what they learned from uninformed people, they would be alive today........ You state, "it is their duty to investigate to the fullest extent possible". NO They need to investigate what's legal to investigate.......You state, "(Yes, I admit there are too many cops out there who have horrible social skills)". If you are a Cop it's your duty to report these bad apples, but what good would it do.
|
|
|
Post by goobastank on Jul 17, 2009 8:08:00 GMT -4
Pete, I realize you were a Baltimore City Officer back in the day. I sincerely thank you for your service. I did not experience the era in which you were an officer but I do realize it was not easy to be a cop back in your day.
That being said.... Probable cause is only needed for an arrest. Who were they responding to the house to arrest? Noone. They were sent to check the welfare of someone who left a hospital prematurely. Police do other things in addition to investigating crimes. It's called serving the public.
If those officers responded to the house and once there they thought something else might be going on, then they are allowed to investigate and ask questions. It is the nature of being a police officer. It is in the job description. Yes, there are limits to the extent, hence "it is their duty to investigate to the fullest extent possible."
On another note, just because an officer may have bad social skills and may say the wrong thing at the wrong time, it does not make them a bad apple. This officer should be taken aside and have the shortcoming pointed out to them. If they continue to make these mistakes, then a supervisor is brought in. But to call someone a bad apple for having bad timing in a conversation? That's rediculous.
I could go on, but I don't see the need. You make many interesting points on this forum, and I enjoy reading your posts and debates with other posters. I now realize why so many people are frustrated with you, though. I know you want to run for sheriff of QACo and I wish you well. My humble suggestion: become a certified police officer again so you're aquainted with the current laws and case-law supporting them. The certification will also lend credibility to your role as a sheriff. Without it, people may think you're just another politician.
I've contributed my last two cents in this matter. I'm sure you'll post again to get the last word, but I won't be replying. Have a great day!
|
|
|
Post by adaml on Jul 17, 2009 9:01:03 GMT -4
goobastank: You sound like you work in law enforcement and I don't know this topic so I am not going to comment on it because I wasn't there and don't know what happened. However you are wrong on probable cause on a call for service. 3 questions for you: 1. How many times have you gone to an alarm residential or commercial and you walk around the premises and everything appears to be secure and you leave? Does that give you PC to enter the building? 2. How many times have you gone to a residential or commercial 911 hangup and nobody answers the door and everything appears to be ok and you leave? 3. How about shots fired calls for service, does that give you probable cause to check every house in the area? 4. How about when a good old family member hundreds of miles away calls for a check the welfare of a family member? If nobody answers or if they do and they appear ok, does that give you PC?
|
|
|
Post by goobastank on Jul 17, 2009 9:23:55 GMT -4
adaml, I am not wrong about probable cause in the situation which has been discussed. Refer to my above posts for clarification.
Yes, I have responded to those types of calls. If there's no answer and I've made every attempt to contact owner, resident, or occupant (depending on call), then I have investigated to the fullest extent possible. I do not try to make entry.
When contact is made with an occupant, however, the investigation begins. Investigations can last several years... or just 2 seconds. If told everything is ok and not invited in, I still have the right to ask questions, but not enter. If everything appears ok, I take my leave at that point. If I'm invited in, I can continue investigating. If told to leave the house, I must leave, but it doesn't mean I have to stop asking questions on my way out.
I replied because you're not Pete and you asked me a question, however, I believe I've answered everything satisfactorily.
Anyone can monday morning quarterback and second guess anything and everything. Every one of us (civilian and officer) has been through it and none of us like it because noone else ever fully realizes every factor involved. I simply pointed out that none of us were there and none of us know the full details.
I'm a cop and I can't afford to contribute more than 2 cents every day, so I'm finished for today. Have a great day!!
|
|