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Consent
Sept 3, 2009 18:31:58 GMT -4
Post by funnel101 on Sept 3, 2009 18:31:58 GMT -4
A friend and I are in a disagreement about the following question:
If you are a citizen of a country, does that mean you've given consent to abide by that country's laws or accept the consequences?
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Consent
Sept 3, 2009 21:01:10 GMT -4
Post by hisea on Sept 3, 2009 21:01:10 GMT -4
I will go with what Hillary Clinton said, "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration some how your not patriotic and we should should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration"
I couldn't have said it any better!
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Consent
Sept 3, 2009 21:47:51 GMT -4
Post by funnel101 on Sept 3, 2009 21:47:51 GMT -4
I don't see how that answers the question I asked.
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Consent
Sept 3, 2009 22:07:30 GMT -4
Post by einebierbitte on Sept 3, 2009 22:07:30 GMT -4
I would think so. Otherwise why become a citizen? If it were to get better benefits or whatever the reason one chose to become a citizen then abiding by the laws and accepting the consequences is a given. At least in my opinion.
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Consent
Sept 3, 2009 22:36:45 GMT -4
Post by funnel101 on Sept 3, 2009 22:36:45 GMT -4
Right, eine, but what about natural-born citizens?
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Consent
Sept 3, 2009 23:02:20 GMT -4
Post by misternuke on Sept 3, 2009 23:02:20 GMT -4
Natural born citizens, naturalized citizens, resident aliens, other visa holders, illegal aliens...
At least in the US, everyone, with the notable exception of foreign diplomats is subject to the laws of the US based on their willful presence in the country. The really cool part about America is that if you don't like it, you are more than welcome to either leave or hang around to work toward changing the perceived injustice.
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Consent
Sept 3, 2009 23:03:22 GMT -4
Post by Water Lady on Sept 3, 2009 23:03:22 GMT -4
Funnel - Is your real question why should people be required to abide by a country's laws if they did not have a choice where they were born???
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Consent
Sept 3, 2009 23:08:28 GMT -4
Post by RobMoore on Sept 3, 2009 23:08:28 GMT -4
That is my question.....what choice does a person have apart from being obedient or rebellious?
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Consent
Sept 3, 2009 23:15:27 GMT -4
Post by Water Lady on Sept 3, 2009 23:15:27 GMT -4
Natural born citizens, naturalized citizens, resident aliens, other visa holders, illegal aliens... At least in the US, everyone, with the notable exception of foreign diplomats is subject to the laws of the US based on their willful presence in the country. The really cool part about America is that if you don't like it, you are more than welcome to either leave or hang around to work toward changing the perceived injustice. I think that about says it all! I also think however, there is an argument coming (or a debate... ) about "why should I have to obey the law if I did not "choose" to be born here..."
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Consent
Sept 4, 2009 4:31:42 GMT -4
Post by falgar25 on Sept 4, 2009 4:31:42 GMT -4
A friend and I are in a disagreement about the following question: If you are a citizen of a country, does that mean you've given consent to abide by that country's laws or accept the consequences? I think this question makes an important assumption; the word "consent" implies you have a choice but generally that is not the case. In most countries you don't "consent" to abide by the laws, it is demanded that you abide by the laws. Imagine what might happen if you lived under some other forms of Govt. and tried to get the laws changed. You might try for only a very short time before you found yourself locked up or executed. There is no "consent" in these countries, you abide by the laws because you don't have any choice at all. In the US (and other "enlightened" countries) the situation is slightly different. You still must abide by the law or face the consequences. You don't have the choice to say, "I'm not from around here so I don't need to do that," or "I didn't agree to that when I was born so I'm not going to obey that law," but you do have the right to at least try to get the law changed. So no, you haven't given consent, but that is because there is absolutely no choice, you must abide by the laws. However, because of the freedoms and protections this country guarantees, that question can be asked and laws can be changed.
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Consent
Sept 4, 2009 7:06:59 GMT -4
Post by RobMoore on Sept 4, 2009 7:06:59 GMT -4
I think this segues nicely into a discussion about which laws should have more influence over your daily lives, State or Federal.
In a largely Federal system, everyone is required to follow the same laws. There is little room for differences. At least in a largely State run system, there should be States that run based on how their citizens want it run. If you don't like left-wing MD, move to VA (as an example). You'd have pockets of liberals, and pockets of libertarians, and pockets of conservatives.....living generally in peace and happiness among like-minded people. When you, as a Congressman/President, want everyone across the country to "lock-step" with how you think, you end up with nasty results.
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Consent
Sept 4, 2009 11:51:18 GMT -4
Post by funnel101 on Sept 4, 2009 11:51:18 GMT -4
Funnel - Is your real question why should people be required to abide by a country's laws if they did not have a choice where they were born??? Nope. The real question is the one I asked. I'm actually going to stay out of this discussion for a while and see what people say.
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Consent
Sept 4, 2009 13:08:48 GMT -4
Post by dej on Sept 4, 2009 13:08:48 GMT -4
If you are a citizen of a country, does that mean you've given consent to abide by that country's laws or accept the consequences? I would guess that varies from country to country. In the U.S. I would say you have at least given an implied consent. If you choose not to give that consent, even a natural born citizen has the right to renounce their citzenship and go elsewhere, which is not always an option in some other countries. This consent does not just apply to citizens, but also to anyone living, working or visiting in a country. As an example, I spent some time working in Saudi Arabia. I don't agree with some of their laws, but I would say it was understood by me and the Saudi official that stamped my visa that I would abide by their laws while in their country, or face the consequences, even though it was never discussed.
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Consent
Sept 4, 2009 13:19:12 GMT -4
Post by speedergurl68 on Sept 4, 2009 13:19:12 GMT -4
I look at it sort of like this...if I am in your house, I am subject to your rules and vice versa. If I don't like your rules, I will leave and would expect the same from anyone in my house. I am certainly not changing the rules in my house for anyone and I would honestly and sincerely hope no one would change their house rules for me.
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Consent
Sept 4, 2009 14:19:37 GMT -4
Post by RobMoore on Sept 4, 2009 14:19:37 GMT -4
Think of it this way. You're living on an island with 4 other people. The 5 of you have things worked out the way you want, and you regularly vote on things. Majority rules. A ship comes along and crashes 4 more people onto your island. Now those 3-2 splits that normally went your way are turning into a 5-4 vote the other way. They make up new rules.
Should you have to decide between abiding by the new rules or swimming to another island?
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Consent
Sept 8, 2009 9:05:29 GMT -4
Post by Frank on Sept 8, 2009 9:05:29 GMT -4
Think of it this way. You're living on an island with 4 other people. The 5 of you have things worked out the way you want, and you regularly vote on things. Majority rules. A ship comes along and crashes 4 more people onto your island. Now those 3-2 splits that normally went your way are turning into a 5-4 vote the other way. They make up new rules. Should you have to decide between abiding by the new rules or swimming to another island? I think I remember this episode of "Gilligans Island". Someone will need to build a hot-air baloon from old raincoats and leave the island.
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Consent
Sept 8, 2009 9:13:23 GMT -4
Post by einebierbitte on Sept 8, 2009 9:13:23 GMT -4
The beauty of being an American Citizen...If you are a natural born citizen, then yes you are subject to abide by the laws of your country and accept the consequences for not abiding by them.
If you don't like the laws of your country, you are free to leave and go elsewhere.
Same goes for those who Chose to become citizens as well........
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Consent
Sept 8, 2009 15:37:31 GMT -4
Post by funnel101 on Sept 8, 2009 15:37:31 GMT -4
Added a poll. Vote.
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