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Egypt
Feb 5, 2011 18:18:19 GMT -4
Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2011 18:18:19 GMT -4
What's the future for Egypt? Will it remain a dictatorship of sorts, will reform take place for becoming a democracy, or will it turn into another Islamic radical country? Choices and decisions, which way will they go.
In the midst of all this, I read this and just wonder why on earth can we continue to be involved around the world like this and it comes back to bite us on the butt. Good thing times are good for all Americans and we got the extra cash to continue doing this.
Pentagon: No plans for halting weapons deliveries to Egypt Sat Feb 5, 2011 7:29PM
Despite growing protests against the regime of President Husni Mobarak, the Pentagon insists it has no plans to stop delivering weapons or other aid to the Egyptian government. Washington provides $1.5 billion of aid to Egypt annually. “There's a difference between halting the aid and reviewing it,” insisted Pentagon spokesman Col. David Lapan, who said there were no plans to alter the scheduled deliveries of military aid. During the early years of the Bush Administration, U.S. aid to Egypt was in excess of $2 billion annually, but the level of non-military aid, particularly for pro-democracy reforms, has been slashed in recent years. Military aid has remained flat, and looks to continue to do so despite the massive uprising. Col. Lapan reiterated that the Egyptian military has acted “professionally and with restraint,” but U.S. aid has also gone to the police forces responsible for some of the most serious violence in the early days of the protests.
Military aid to Egypt became a cornerstone of U.S. foreign policy in 1979, when Egypt signed a landmark peace deal with Israel. Boston.com United States taxpayers have funneled more than $60 billion of aid into Egypt since President Hosni Mubarak came to power in 1981, but more than half of the money has been spent supplying weapons to the country's military. In the 32 years since Camp David, Egypt has collected more than $35 billion in U.S. weapons, F-4 and F-16 fighters, M-60 and M-1 tanks, Perry and Knox-class frigates, nearly all of it paid for by U.S. taxpayers. Time According to lists of arms sales notifications compiled by the Pentagon's Defense Security Assistance Agency, in the last decade alone, the Department of Defense has brokered over $11 billion in U.S. arms offers to the Egyptian regime. The U.S. is providing about $1.5 billion this year, $1.3 billion of which is military (that works out to $3.5 million a day).
U.S. officials have long argued that the funding promotes strong ties between the two countries' militaries, which has all sorts of benefits. For example, U.S. Navy warships get "expedited processing" through the Suez Canal.
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Egypt
Feb 5, 2011 18:39:11 GMT -4
Post by funnel101 on Feb 5, 2011 18:39:11 GMT -4
Wait, what? How can we justify giving Mubarak weapons when his own people don't want him anymore? Not only that, but you'd think with the future of the country being unknown (I doubt it will become an Islamic republic like Iran; even the Muslim Brotherhood has said they want a secular government; but it is quite possible the new government won't be as lenient towards Israel as the current one) we'd back off for a bit.
Honestly, if Mubarak will step down and the country can have free and fair elections, I see a very bright future for Egypt. I don't think it'll become an Islamic republic like Iran, regardless of what Iran's Ayatollah may say. (And the irony of Iran's Ayatollah praising the Egyptian protesters when Iranians were themselves protesting their oppressive government just 2 years ago is striking.)
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Egypt
Feb 5, 2011 18:56:18 GMT -4
Post by Water Lady on Feb 5, 2011 18:56:18 GMT -4
Wait, what? How can we justify giving Mubarak weapons when his own people don't want him anymore? Not only that, but you'd think with the future of the country being unknown (I doubt it will become an Islamic republic like Iran; even the Muslim Brotherhood has said they want a secular government; but it is quite possible the new government won't be as lenient towards Israel as the current one) we'd back off for a bit. Honestly, if Mubarak will step down and the country can have free and fair elections, I see a very bright future for Egypt. I don't think it'll become an Islamic republic like Iran, regardless of what Iran's Ayatollah may say. (And the irony of Iran's Ayatollah praising the Egyptian protesters when Iranians were themselves protesting their oppressive government just 2 years ago is striking.) To this I have a comment and a question... Comment: If the Muslim Brotherhood has stated they want a secular government, then I think we should all breathe a collective sigh of relief and have them over for tea... Question: How, exactly, has the "current" government of Egypt been "lenient towards Israel?" Or better yet, if a new government might be less lenient, what pray tell, do you think that might mean???
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Egypt
Feb 5, 2011 23:13:34 GMT -4
Post by funnel101 on Feb 5, 2011 23:13:34 GMT -4
Israel has a stable peace treaty that was made under the current government of Egypt. If the government changes, the new government may not honor the current peace treaty or may want to renegotiate its terms. And I may have been mistaken about the Muslim Brotherhood. Here is the comment I was thinking of: from news.brisbanetimes.com.au/breaking-news-world/muslim-brotherhood-hold-talks-in-egypt-20110206-1ahzr.htmlThe crux of my opinion about what's going on in Egypt is this: that Egyptians have the right to choose and elect their own government, regardless of whether the government they elect best serves US interests or not.
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Egypt
Feb 5, 2011 23:25:47 GMT -4
Post by RobMoore on Feb 5, 2011 23:25:47 GMT -4
I agree with that.
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Egypt
Feb 6, 2011 2:04:19 GMT -4
Post by Water Lady on Feb 6, 2011 2:04:19 GMT -4
Israel has a stable peace treaty that was made under the current government of Egypt. If the government changes, the new government may not honor the current peace treaty or may want to renegotiate its terms. And I may have been mistaken about the Muslim Brotherhood. Here is the comment I was thinking of: from news.brisbanetimes.com.au/breaking-news-world/muslim-brotherhood-hold-talks-in-egypt-20110206-1ahzr.htmlThe crux of my opinion about what's going on in Egypt is this: that Egyptians have the right to choose and elect their own government, regardless of whether the government they elect best serves US interests or not. And Funnel - I totally agree with the "crux" of your opinion...as stated. I happen to believe we have placed ourselves between a rock and a hard place, yet again. You seem to have backed off your comment about the Muslim Brotherhood by quoting yet another Muslim leader (from yet another group,) however, you do not address my question about leniency toward Israel on the part of Egypt... Again, please tell us how Egypt has been "lenient" to Israel during the current rule of government and what a lesser leniency toward Israel might entail. And finally, really...the Brisbane Times? Is that how far one must search to find a somewhat "secular" muslim, theocratic (albeit cleverly disguised) point of view??? Contrary to your quoted article and by all accounts, there is no clear "demand" of all the protesters in Egypt at the current time. NO ONE is speaking on behalf of the masses at this time...
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Egypt
Feb 6, 2011 8:10:24 GMT -4
Post by hisea on Feb 6, 2011 8:10:24 GMT -4
Correct me if I am wrong? Wasn't Mubark sitting next to Anwar Sadat when the muslim brotherhood assassinated President Sadat! I don't want the brotherhood in charge of Egypt!
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Egypt
Feb 6, 2011 15:07:28 GMT -4
Post by grova on Feb 6, 2011 15:07:28 GMT -4
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Egypt
Feb 6, 2011 17:20:14 GMT -4
Post by funnel101 on Feb 6, 2011 17:20:14 GMT -4
WaterLady, I thought I did answer how the current government of Egypt has been lenient towards Israel by saying that they have a peace treaty. Maybe lenient wasn't the right term there. Anyways, my point was that if/when the government changes, the new one may not abide by the peace treaty.
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Deleted
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Egypt
Feb 6, 2011 18:10:36 GMT -4
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2011 18:10:36 GMT -4
.....and we provide aid and military hardware to both.
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Egypt
Feb 7, 2011 4:17:13 GMT -4
Post by dej on Feb 7, 2011 4:17:13 GMT -4
Not only that, but you'd think with the future of the country being unknown (I doubt it will become an Islamic republic like Iran; even the Muslim Brotherhood has said they want a secular government; Funnel, I do believe that the Muslim Brotherhood would support a a democratic and secular government in Egypt, but only in the short run The freedoms that come with such a government actually make it easier to achieve their long term goals, which is an Islamist government based on Sharia law. A perfect example of how freedom helps them was given in a lecture to U.S. members in St. Louis in the 1980's. During a Q&A session, an audience member pointed out the "resources and freedoms which are available in North America are bigger than what is available in the Islamic world. Despite that, organizational work methods have not changed." The principle speaker, Zeid al-Noma disagreed, giving the following reply: "By God, I believe that the methods are different. If the asking brother is from Iraq, he would know that it is impossible to have such a gathering in Iraq and this is one of the methods. If the asking brother is from Jordan, he would know it is not possible to have military training in Jordan, for instance, while here in America, there is weapons training in many of the Ikhwans' camps. If the brother is from Libya, he would know that the Islamic Movement has not been able to form due to the pressure which is on the people, but it succeeded in growing in America." www.nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/HLF/IkhwanAmerica.pdfA couple years ago, a memo circulated within their U.S groups, made it clear one of their long term goals was not just the elimination of the American way of life, but the elimination of Western Civilization in general, by working from within the democratic systems most Western nations have: The process of settlement is a "Civilization-Jihadist Process" with all the word means. The Ikhwan [Muslim Brotherhood] must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who chose to slack. www.analyst-network.com/article.php?art_id=2333
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Egypt
Feb 11, 2011 17:25:27 GMT -4
Post by funnel101 on Feb 11, 2011 17:25:27 GMT -4
For those who haven't heard, Mubarak has stepped down.
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Egypt
Feb 11, 2011 17:38:13 GMT -4
Post by jake on Feb 11, 2011 17:38:13 GMT -4
There will be no such thing as a true "democratic and secular government" in an Islamic country.
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Egypt
Feb 11, 2011 18:30:01 GMT -4
Post by funnel101 on Feb 11, 2011 18:30:01 GMT -4
There will be no such thing as a true "democratic and secular government" in an Islamic country. Turkey?
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Egypt
Feb 11, 2011 18:51:24 GMT -4
Post by jake on Feb 11, 2011 18:51:24 GMT -4
Yep, I stand corrected. Turkey would be the one.
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Egypt
Feb 12, 2011 1:15:24 GMT -4
Post by grova on Feb 12, 2011 1:15:24 GMT -4
There will be no such thing as a true "democratic and secular government" in an Islamic country. Then what are we doing spending Trillions of dollars nation building in Iraq and Afghanistan?
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Egypt
Feb 12, 2011 8:51:34 GMT -4
Post by pete1 on Feb 12, 2011 8:51:34 GMT -4
Hip Hip Hoary for the Egyptian people. What's it going to take for us to stand up for the Constitution?
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Egypt
Feb 12, 2011 9:23:14 GMT -4
Post by falgar25 on Feb 12, 2011 9:23:14 GMT -4
Hip Hip Hoary for the Egyptian people. What's it going to take for us to stand up for the Constitution? Perhaps it will take being truly oppressed like the Egyptian people. They risked their lives to move only slightly in the direction of where some of us stand complaining about how bad things are.
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Egypt
Feb 12, 2011 9:31:10 GMT -4
Post by pete1 on Feb 12, 2011 9:31:10 GMT -4
Hip Hip Hoary for the Egyptian people. What's it going to take for us to stand up for the Constitution? Perhaps it will take being truly oppressed like the Egyptian people. They risked their lives to move only slightly in the direction of where some of us stand complaining about how bad things are. Bad is one thing. Un-Constitutional is another. The law makes us free. If we don't stand up we will lose our freeedon eventually.
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Egypt
Feb 12, 2011 9:44:12 GMT -4
Post by falgar25 on Feb 12, 2011 9:44:12 GMT -4
Bad is one thing. Un-Constitutional is another. The law makes us free. If we don't stand up we will lose our freeedon eventually. Global warming, the next ice age, the depletion of our natural resources, and the extinction of our sun will also all happen eventually, but not tomorrow or even next week.
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Egypt
Feb 12, 2011 9:54:40 GMT -4
Post by pete1 on Feb 12, 2011 9:54:40 GMT -4
Bad is one thing. Un-Constitutional is another. The law makes us free. If we don't stand up we will lose our freedom eventually. Global warming, the next ice age, the depletion of our natural resources, and the extinction of our sun will also all happen eventually, but not tomorrow or even next week. No $hit Sherlock.
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Egypt
Feb 12, 2011 9:55:52 GMT -4
Post by pete1 on Feb 12, 2011 9:55:52 GMT -4
Bad is one thing. Un-Constitutional is another. The law makes us free. If we don't stand up we will lose our freeedon eventually. Global warming, the next ice age, the depletion of our natural resources, and the extinction of our sun will also all happen eventually, but not tomorrow or even next week. No $hit Sherlock.
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Egypt
Feb 12, 2011 11:19:23 GMT -4
Post by harleyd on Feb 12, 2011 11:19:23 GMT -4
Global warming, the next ice age, the depletion of our natural resources, and the extinction of our sun will also all happen eventually, but not tomorrow or even next week. No $hit Sherlock. Time to check your medications petey. Your repeating your rudeness.
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Egypt
Feb 12, 2011 14:46:46 GMT -4
Post by funnel101 on Feb 12, 2011 14:46:46 GMT -4
Hip Hip Hoary for the Egyptian people. What's it going to take for us to stand up for the Constitution? Perhaps it will take being truly oppressed like the Egyptian people. They risked their lives to move only slightly in the direction of where some of us stand complaining about how bad things are. Yeah, I agree with this. Comparing our situation here in the US to the situation in Egypt minimizes the suffering the Egyptians have gone through. The US isn't perfect: minority groups still suffer from discrimination and prejudice, and occasionally outright exploitation; but we have elections that aren't rigged. We haven't had the same "President" for 30 years. We are allowed to have opposing political parties, even if 3rd party candidates hardly ever get elected. We have freedom of speech and freedom of movement. These protests that lasted for 18 days in Egypt were illegal. And I don't mean in the "They didn't have a permit" way; I mean in the "Gathering in mass to protest government behavior is ILLEGAL and violators can be tossed in prison for years without trial or legal recourse" way.
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Deleted
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Egypt
Feb 12, 2011 16:23:35 GMT -4
Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2011 16:23:35 GMT -4
The one thing was pretty amazing with what has happened in Egypt, is that bloodshed was very minimal. I believe the military played a vital role in that by staying on the sidelines neutral. That's a good thing, since it did have the power to crush the revolution, but it didn't. One reason for that might be because a lot of the younger military officers have been trained and graduated from US military schools, unlike the military in a lot of other iron ruled countries. They've seen the way how a civilian controlled military operates. That is probably a very positive thing and I'm optimistic that a democratic country will develop.
We shall see.
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