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Post by stephadele on Nov 7, 2009 13:01:06 GMT -4
Her kids were in their teens when she killed the father...We dont know if she was battered before or during pregnancy but its likely since birth defects of unborn children thru battering by the father is one of the most common and frequent forms of abuse.. She did find solutions to leaving...she left many times according to her and the police reports..She filed numerous restraining orders on him.....Plus she lost time from work because of him....dealing withe police and his outbursts and stalking her..That isnt fair to her or her patients...Any other woman would have been fired because of lost time from work because of his violence...He always found her and beat and stalked and threatened her....Shes not responsible for that.. Stop blaming abused women for the actions of men. And women who leave men before they marry and have children with them still get stalked and beaten and killed by their partners...That makes no difference. Teen girls are killed by their partners for leaving them. Read up on the stats and info from this: www.clotheslineproject.org
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Post by safetildecember on Nov 7, 2009 13:06:23 GMT -4
Her kids were in their teens when she killed the father...We dont know if she was battered before or during pregnancy but its likely since birth defects of unborn children thru battering by the father is one of the most common and frequent forms of abuse.. She did find solutions to leaving...she left many times according to her and the police reports..She filed numerous restraining orders on him........He always found her and beat and stalked and threatened her....Shes not responsible for that.. Stop blaming abused women for the actions of men. And women who leave men before they marry and have children with them still get stalked and beaten and killed by their partners...That makes no difference. Teen girls are killed by their partners for leaving them. Read up on the stats and info from this: www.clotheslineproject.orgWell, if everything you are stating is true, I find it hard to believe she could not have anything done about it. No man, even a cop can get away with decades of documented abuse. My point about the timeline and pregnancy is if she suffered decades of abuse, he started abusing her before she got pregnant. I do blame her for bringing a child into that situation and staying in the situation.
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Post by stephadele on Nov 7, 2009 13:11:49 GMT -4
You are missing the point. She did do everything about it. And he STILL continued to beat her and stalk her. He was coming after her son and she protected her son and got between them...He came after her and she shot him so thats self defense of her AND protecting her son. And you cant blame for her for having a child and expecting her to fortell the future that he would abuse her....How on earth would she even know that?...What about the men who DO stop battering?...Shes supposed to get out her crystal ball and predict that too?...please Stop making her play "god" and putting her in a no win situation. Would you ask a man to fortell the future on the behavior of HIS wife that way?.... Please read up on the clotheline project, you have alot of myths about domestic violence.
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Post by safetildecember on Nov 7, 2009 13:17:25 GMT -4
You are missing the point. She did do everything about it. And he STILL continued to beat her and stalk her. He was coming after her son and she protected her son and got between them...He came after her and she shot him so thats self defense of her AND protecting her son. And you cant blame for her for having a child and expecting her to fortell the future that he would abuse her.... Stop making her play "god" and putting her in a no win situation. Would you ask a man to fortell the future on the behavior of HIS wife?.... You said he beat her for decades and her kids were teens so he obviously started his abuse before the birth of her first child or at least the second one. I still find it hard to believe that the abuse was documented for decades and nothing was done about it, it does not matter if he was a cop or not. Other cops have been prosecuted for spousal abuse, I think she could have come up with another solution after decades. She was educated and able to support her family, she could have moved thousands of miles away from him. If that is what it took to stop the abuse she should have done it. If the abuse was documented she could have had another solution no matter who he was. I do not think she did enough.
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Post by stephadele on Nov 7, 2009 13:28:03 GMT -4
We dont know when the abuse started. Thats a fact. Lets stay with that and not make false assumptions about her. And you dont know Cape Cod if you think working part time as a PCP is enough to support your family while you raise them. What other solutions should she have done? You keep saying she should have come up with something but you dont say what that "something" is? ....So what is that?.....looks like you just want to blame without giving concrete solutions yourself......That isnt a "solution" but rather passive judging and blaming without answering the hard questions. If she moves thousands of miles from him, who will take care of her children, since she wouldnt have family around then and you expert her to work full time?... You are assuming that she or anyone else "knows" that moving thousands of miles of away stops the abuse....We have no way of knowing that.. What we do know is a batterer, particularly a well connected police officer, can track her down readily no matter what state she moves to....Numerous women have been killed after they move out of state...So theres no "predicting" on her part on what is going to work so why go there?. And why is it that she is the one who needs to uproot her family and move thousands of miles away?...Why isnt HE forced to move? After all, isnt he the one who's the the criminal here?...Isnt he causing the problem? You keeping putting all the burden and responsibility on her instead of him.
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Post by safetildecember on Nov 7, 2009 13:34:00 GMT -4
We dont know when the abuse started. Thats a fact. Lets stay with that and not make false assumptions about her. And you dont know Cape Cod if you think working part time as a PCP is enough to support your family while you raise them. What other solutions should she have done? You keep saying she should have come up with something but you dont say what that "something" is? ....So what is that?.....looks like you just want to blame without giving concrete solutions yourself......That isnt a "solution" but rather passive judging and blaming. If she moves thousands of miles from him, who will take care of her children, since she wouldnt have family around then and you expert her to work full time? And we know a batterer, particularly a police officer, can track her down readily no matter what state she moves to....Numerous women have been killed after they move out of state... And why is it that she is the one who needs to uproot her family and move thousands of miles away?...Why isnt HE forced to move? After all, isnt he the one who's the the criminal here? You keeping putting all the burden and responsibility on her instead of him. That enables him to continue stalking her... You are the one that stated she suffered decades of abuse. If she had family locally then they could have helped her, at least gotten her kids out of the abusive situation. If the abuse was documented like you said it was something could have been done. She could have moved thousands of miles away and if he followed her something could have been done about it. Of course he still could have killed her but we will never know because she did not try.
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Post by bchevy on Nov 7, 2009 13:51:41 GMT -4
Wow, did this thread take a dive. You 2 wanna get a room?
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Post by stephadele on Nov 7, 2009 14:01:01 GMT -4
Local family cant help her if they are thousands of miles away from her. If she flees to a local shelter they dont know where she is....And she isnt allowed to tell them for risk of the abuser finding her. Just exackly what could she have done if he follows her thousands of miles away?...You never say what she could have done?...Just that she has to move thousanads of miles away..for what?..to experience the same thing she did living local? Shes already did that living close by, so whats the difference? She would just be repeating what she did living close by. Thats no solution....and we have no evidence that making that move would be any safer. Hindsight is 20/20. And trying to make her playing God by asking and judging "what if she moved away" doesnt give her garaunteed safety either. If she dies at his hands by moving away , thats wrong, and if she doesnt move, thats wrong too? So by staying local where her family and friends can support her and where her job is , we know she did make the best choice for herself....which is what Ive been saying all along. BTW...The entire Cape did support her and demanded that her license be reinstated. Thousands of letters were written in her support. Its interesting how outsiders of the situation can be pretty judgemental and assuming.
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Post by safetildecember on Nov 7, 2009 14:06:22 GMT -4
Local family cant help her if they are thousands of miles away from her. If she flees to a local shelter they dont know where she is....And she isnt allowed to tell them for risk of the abuser finding her. Just exackly what could she have done if he follows her thousands of miles away?...You never say what she could have done?...Just that she has to move thousanads of miles away..for what?..to experience the same thing she did living local? Shes already did that living close by, so whats the difference? She would just be repeating what she did living close by. Thats no solution....and we have no evidence that making that move would be any safer. Hindsight is 20/20. And trying to make her playing God by asking and judging "what if she moved away" doesnt give her garaunteed safety either. If she dies at his hands by moving away , thats wrong, and if she doesnt move, thats wrong too? So by staying local where her family and friends can support her and where her job is , we know she did make the best choice for herself....which is what Ive been saying all along. BTW...The entire Cape did support her and demanded that her license be reinstated. Thousands of letters were written in her support. Its interesting how outsiders of the situation can be pretty judgemental and assuming. Then she should have shot him 20 years ago. I hope when you were counseling battered women you did more to empower them and did not have such a passive attitude towards rectifying their situations.
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Post by stephadele on Nov 7, 2009 16:33:47 GMT -4
Then she should have shot him 20 years ago? Are you now saying she could have predicted what his behavior would be like 20 year later?? No one can predict the future regarding someone else's behavior nor should they be pressured to entertain the idea...now thats disempowering. And shooting him 20 years ago, when people were less informed about battered women would have landed her far more punitive punishment. Hindsight is 20/20...No one can predict or judge how someone else can keep themselves or their children safe...especially if they havent lived it.
Im not sure what you mean by a "passive attitude" since Im a realist on the situation. I do empower them to leave but only when its safe and practical for them to do so and they want it. In other words, its her decision when to leave, not mine. Encouraging a woman to blindly leave impulsively because its what I want without her thinking it thru and getting resources and supports because someone else is pressing her is not only unsafe but disempowering for women. She will never learn to stand on her own two feet and trust her instincts doing that. Again, please get educated about battering by checking out the clothesline project.org so you can better understand the subject.
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Post by safetildecember on Nov 7, 2009 18:20:17 GMT -4
Then she should have shot him 20 years ago? Are you now saying she could have predicted what his behavior would be like 20 year later?? No one can predict the future regarding someone else's behavior nor should they be pressured to entertain the idea...now thats disempowering. And shooting him 20 years ago, when people were less informed about battered women would have landed her far more punitive punishment. Hindsight is 20/20...No one can predict or judge how someone else can keep themselves or their children safe...especially if they havent lived it. Im not sure what you mean by a "passive attitude" since Im a realist on the situation. I do empower them to leave but only when its safe and practical for them to do so and they want it. In other words, its her decision when to leave, not mine. Encouraging a woman to blindly leave impulsively because its what I want without her thinking it thru and getting resources and supports because someone else is pressing her is not only unsafe but disempowering for women. She will never learn to stand on her own two feet and trust her instincts doing that. Again, please get educated about battering by checking out the clothesline project.org so you can better understand the subject. Yes, she should have shot him 20 yrs. ago. You said she had been through 20 yrs. of abuse by him so then yes, she should have shot him 20 yrs. ago. You said about women leaving, "they have to want it" , yes that is right that have to want it and if they don't want out of a bad situation I have limited sympathy for them. You mentioned " blindly leaving impulsively".....the woman had 20 years to think about it, it would not have been impulsive.
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Post by safetildecember on Nov 7, 2009 18:25:52 GMT -4
Now, back to the original subject of the thread. The stories of how our soldiers reacted when this horrific incident took place at Fort Hood the other day is amazing. God Bless Our Troops!
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Post by stephadele on Nov 7, 2009 21:26:04 GMT -4
First of all, its not about just wanting to leave, its about being able to. A woman just cant leave without a place to live, a job, a safe area thats hidden, schools for her kids....Those who leave without that end up HOMELESS....Is that what you want? Getting that takes time...you seem to think because women dont leave right away its because they dont want to leave. Often nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, the homeless shelters are full of battered women and her children who didnt have a place to live. For you to say she should have killed him 20 years ago is crazy...Do you think her children need to see her kill their father?...Are you willing to support their mental health therapy treating their PTSD from that with your taxes just because you say she should kill him..?....I thought so...Then you have no right to demand anything from her...You want the power to say what she should do without any of the consequences for your decision...Wrong. No woman should have to kill her abuser and take the law into her own hands because the sick society doesnt hold consequences for him. Violence repeated doesnt solve anything...The corruption should have been broken up so that he is stopped.. The reality is she did leave him and he continued to stalk and harrass her and use his connections to get his way dispite restraining orders and jail times and you dont answer to that....Nor did you answer why her batterer isnt required to move far away..,,Why?......Seems like you are taking up for him when he is the criminal...Thats nuts that you remain silent on that....Hostility towards women it looks like....
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Post by safetildecember on Nov 7, 2009 21:43:15 GMT -4
First of all, its not about just wanting to leave, its about being able to. A woman just cant leave without a place to live, a job, a safe area thats hidden, schools for her kids....Those who leave without that end up HOMELESS....Is that what you want? Getting that takes time...you seem to think because women dont leave right away its because they dont want to leave. Often nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, the homeless shelters are full of battered women and her children who didnt have a place to live. For you to say she should have killed him 20 years ago is crazy...Do you think her children need to see her kill their father?...Are you willing to support their mental health therapy treating their PTSD from that with your taxes just because you say she should kill him..?....I thought so...Then you have no right to demand anything from her...You want the power to say what she should do without any of the consequences for your decision...Wrong. No woman should have to kill her abuser and take the law into her own hands because the sick society doesnt hold consequences for him. Violence repeated doesnt solve anything... The reality is she did leave him and he continued to stalk and harrass her and use his connections to get his way dispite restraining orders and jail times and you dont answer to that....Nor did you answer why her batterer isnt required to move far away..,,Why?......Seems like you are taking up for him when he is the criminal...Thats nuts that you remain silent on that....Hostility towards women it looks like.... Yes, being homeless is better than living with an abuser who could kill you or your kids. The kids might have had less PTSD if she would have left him earlier, not after decades of abuse. Things take time, she had decades, at least 20 years. How much time did she need?
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Post by stephadele on Nov 7, 2009 21:50:47 GMT -4
It seems to me that if you cared about the wellbeing of her children, you would not want them to witness the murder of their father by their mother. She did leave him earlier and he just kept coming after her, threatening her....The police werent any help......Whats she supposed to do then?..You dont give answers to that other than kill him..Well, she did...So dont complain when your tax dollars pay for their PTSD for life....And kids dont neccessarily have less PTSD because she leaves and he keeps stalking and terrorizing them....Living in fear of him returning and attacking them creates permanent brain damage in kids...Been there seen that many times. The bottom line is that the corruption of police departments need to be nipped in the bud and stopped so criminals like him can be put away for good..
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Post by safetildecember on Nov 7, 2009 21:57:41 GMT -4
It seems to me that if you cared about the wellbeing of her children, you would not want them to witness the murder of their father by their mother. She did leave him earlier and he just kept coming after her, threatening her....The police werent any help......Whats she supposed to do then?..You dont give answers to that other than kill him..Well, she did...So dont complain when your tax dollars pay for their PTSD for life....And kids dont neccessarily have less PTSD because she leaves and he keeps stalking and terrorizing them....Living in fear of him returning and attacking them creates permanent brain damage in kids...Been there seen that many times. The bottom line is that the corruption of police departments need to be nipped in the bud and stopped so criminals like him can be put away for good.. You stated she suffered decades of abuse by him so I will assume that it was a minimum of 20 years. You stated her kids were teenagers so she obviously was getting the crap beat out of her by this man prior to their birth. She should have had more sense and gotten away from him decades ago before she had the kids. You stated she killed him so......You act like she had no other choice but to kill him so......she should have killed him 20 years ago. And I did offer other solutions. If she did not have what it took to get away from him she could at least gotten her children out of the situation. She could have gone to live with her family that you said lived close. If her family knew she and her kids were getting the crap beat out of them, they would have taken her in. She could have moved to the other side of the country and gotten a full time job to support her family and if he followed her then she could have used legal means to get him away from her. There are numerous solutions to the problem but as you stated, the women have to "want" to get out of the situation. For her to endure it for decades seems to me she did not try very hard.
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Post by misternuke on Nov 8, 2009 1:02:40 GMT -4
The killer was/ is a Muslim, say what you want it sure looks and sounds like an attack by a man who used his religion as a excuse to kill others! What better way to justify your action of killing a fellow human than using God as your excuse! And just what about the shooting makes it clear that he used his religion as an excuse? It is the media and WE who have assigned that as a reason, not Hasan. From what we know at this point it is just as likely that harassment drove him to do this as it is that his beliefs in Islam caused it. Ummm... I'd say the fact that he was yelling "allahu akbar" as he killed his victims might be a pretty good indicator that this was driven by islamist extremism. Not a whole lot of unreasonable conjecture there....
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Post by stephadele on Nov 8, 2009 8:11:13 GMT -4
"Being homeless is better than being with an abuser" Who says? How do you know children dont witness and experience violence in a homeless shelter or living with "freinds"...They do...alot..Sounds like you havent seen that.. She actually did move in with her family and he still came after her....Living with family members in the area is no guarantee of being safe.....Some family members arent supportive of her, dont believe her . and speak to abusers.....That happens alot.....She did leave many times....So she did try everything.....Sounds like you cant accept that.....She cant control his behavior thru changing her own..And why is it better for her to be in jail after killing him?...Many women are in jail for killing their abusive husbands and remain there....They dont raise their children....That traumatizes the children twice....Now they need therapy for complex PTSD because of that...Something tax payers dont even want to pay for and insurance companies dont want to provide and there are shortages of child providers everywhere....So killing him isnt a good option. Neither is moving far away because he can easily stalk her there being a police officer.. For you to think she should have done that years ago would have meant she would have never raised her children...The court system 20 years ago did not understand domestic violence and still would have blamed her, putting her in jail...The "Framingham Eight" prove that....There are many women who have been in jail for decades after killing their abusive husbands and boyfriends...And yet, you still dont give any other options that would have worked because she already tried them all...Shows how little the public really understands the nature of the problem yet are so quick to give advice.....The truth is the only option is jailing the abuser for good..And that doesnt happen in our current court system...Especialy when corruption is present among police officers....There are long term consequences of doing all that you mentioned with no plan for ensuring help or funds for paying for this on a large scale...Leaving us where we are today...not enough shelters, a corrupt justice system, underfunded counseling for all who need it in an inhumane system that denies care, all of it causing preventable PTSD in children who dont deserve that.
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Post by speedergurl68 on Nov 8, 2009 8:57:24 GMT -4
Excuse me...could we PLEASE stay on the actual topic?
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Post by safetildecember on Nov 8, 2009 9:39:32 GMT -4
Excuse me...could we PLEASE stay on the actual topic? I tried. I quit. All I am going to say is I am glad she is retired.
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Post by einebierbitte on Nov 8, 2009 9:40:49 GMT -4
thats a crock of crap saying that he had no where to go to talk to someone, Kileen Texas aint that small and it's not in the middle of nowhwere either.
But the bottom line is that first they have to want to be able to go talk to someone.
And I for one don't believe for one minute that he snapped or whatever.
This was deliberate. But most people can't or won't accept that, you have to believe that there was something going on that caused it..
Why not just take it at face value.
The next thing we are going to here is that he is innocent and that we should pity him.
I think not.
I have no, nor will I have any pity or compassion for this person. He should be executed.
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Post by safetildecember on Nov 8, 2009 9:45:25 GMT -4
thats a crock of crap saying that he had no where to go to talk to someone, Kileen Texas aint that small and it's not in the middle of nowhwere either. But the bottom line is that first they have to want to be able to go talk to someone. And I for one don't believe for one minute that he snapped or whatever. This was deliberate. But most people can't or won't accept that, you have to believe that there was something going on that caused it.. Why not just take it at face value. The next thing we are going to here is that he is innocent and that we should pity him. I think not. I have no, nor will I have any pity or compassion for this person. He should be executed. You will never hear me say he was innocent or deserved any pity. He should be hung on a cross like Jesus, beaten with shoes with dog poop on them and blown up with a bomb strapped to his chest. Kos Omak. Boss Teezi.
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Post by speedergurl68 on Nov 8, 2009 10:19:53 GMT -4
I'm with you 100% 'Bitte. As I stated earlier.... I, however, still think the "old" punishment is more than apropos: This section is from the book "Popular Law Library Vol10 Criminal Law, Criminal Procedure, Wills, Administration", by Albert H. Putney. Also available from Amazon: Popular Law-Dictionary. Section 10. Punishment For TreasonThe punishment for this crime by the common law is a forfeiture of all property and honors and attainder of blood; also the death penalty.21 Blackstone: The offender shall be drawn to the gallows, and not be carried or walk, though usually (by connivance at length ripened by humanity into law), a sledge or hurdle is allowed to preserve the offender from the extreme torment of being dragged on the ground or pavement. He shall be hanged by the neck, and then cut down alive; his entrails shall be taken out and burned while he is yet alive; his head shall be cut off and his body divided into four parts. His head and quarters shall be at the disposal of the king.22 (in place of the word "king" insert "familes of those murdered in cold blood".)
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Post by safetildecember on Nov 8, 2009 10:39:12 GMT -4
Frank should juice up his taser and head to Texas, don't forget the Metallica CD's. James Hedfield said he does not mind his band's music being used to "torture" terrorists.
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Post by stephadele on Nov 8, 2009 10:48:19 GMT -4
Invisible...So your last response is "glad shes retiring"? Sounds like you cant handle the truth from a veteran of the system whos seen it all....As do most of the public so thats not unusual..... We remain where we are today with it...Kill em up, shoot em up, ignore the family's reality....and dam.n the consequences and the costs...
Ditto for the lynch mob here regarding the shooting...treason treason!, string him up, shoot him!...Like thats really going to prevent any of this from happening in the first place or prevent it in the future....Ignorance isnt bliss for long..
Walks away in disgust...Have fun wallowing in your violence and hate.
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