|
Post by Water Lady on Aug 30, 2009 21:19:55 GMT -4
Marriage hasn't always been between a man and a woman, though, even according to the Bible. And who can marry who has evolved over the years as well: interracial marriages were illegal in this country within the last century. I have a friend who's in an interracial marriage who used to be against same-sex marriage for the same reasons listed by all of you. She changed her mind, though, because she realized that all of the arguments currently made against same-sex marriage were once made against interracial marriage. Your beliefs do condemn a group of people: you condemn them either to a life without any romantic love or intimacy, or hell after death. How is that not condemning? Funnel, It is not condemning because a belief can not condemn: Belief - something believed; conviction of the truth of some statement of the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence. Condemn - to declare to be reprehensible, wrong or evil, usually after weighing evidence and without reservation. Conform - to be obedient or compliant, to adapt oneself to prevailing standards or customs. Condone - to pardon or overlook voluntarily, to treat as if trivial, harmless, or of no importance or consequence. Also, I do take the Bible seriously (most seriously.) I know the history of the Bible and more than anything, I know what it says. I guess none of us can make you understand that we are not condemning, condoning or judging anyone. We are choosing not to conform to something of which we do not believe. Only GOD can condemn someone to Hell after death...I'd assume MOST OF US can agree about that.
|
|
|
Post by emsguru on Aug 30, 2009 22:42:41 GMT -4
nope
|
|
|
Post by Water Lady on Aug 31, 2009 0:36:15 GMT -4
|
|
|
Post by falgar25 on Aug 31, 2009 6:41:38 GMT -4
Only GOD can condemn someone to Hell after death...I'd assume ALL OF US can agree about that. You don't know me nearly well enough to assume what I might agree with.
|
|
|
Post by shorti on Aug 31, 2009 9:05:19 GMT -4
We do not HAVE to agree with everything everyone does. That is just nonsense. I can disagree about someone's choice of shoes...but that doesn't mean I am condemning them for one second. None of us can condemn any one for their personal choices and lifestyle. But we do not have to agree with them either. This isn't some sort of academic valhalla. This isn't a perfect world, nor will it ever be. People are different and that is a fact. You cannot force anyone to conform to your own set of beliefs and that is a fact. Why is it such an issue to get approval from anyone on your personal choices? That to me is dubious in nature. I make my decisions for my life and if folks like em great...if not...great. They are my decisions for my life. I will pay the price for them. Why is there this huge push to force people to agree on this issue? It's not going to happen any more than we are all going to like the same flavor of ice cream. Don't tell me it's a bigger issue than that...no, it isn't. Not for me. For the people trying to force it on me it apparently is. Take it up with them. I will say it again...for effect...I. Do. Not. Care. Who. Anyone. Sleeps. With. And chevyman...I couldn't agree with you more. SG - I don't see anyone as trying to force a belief on someone... I can't... you can't... funnel can't... nobody can make someone believe... only one can & then it's up to the person to be open to that and not completely closed minded... you know? take your ice cream reference... you can tell me i'd like pistachio (sp?) but if i refuse to even try it... I'll never know... I dunno - maybe it seems like a push because i care and there are others who do too because like CG mentioned earlier - she's had several PM's from gay friends here on the forum that are upset by my opinion on the matter she brought up... well I'm upset about the decision a group of PEOPLE made & publically that in this day in age... most people who have little to no faith/beliefs will take as hypocrisy of ALL Christians... not just one group... we all know that in this world & in our time... it's a group - not us & them... This shines badly for those who do believe that the Bible is the final authority & believe in it & believe that homosexuality is a sin... that's what hurts the most... as a Christian it's like they are leading folks in the wrong direction... JMHO... for me.... it's heart breaking... because I've been one of little to no faith & I KNOW PERSONALLY what effect this would have had on me at that point in my life. I know what it's like to be "that" person who is so lost & thinks that ALL RELIGIONS are full of bologna & I know what it is to search & search & search for something because I knew there was more to it & to NEVER BE SATISFIED! I know what it's like to read so many books on various faiths & think "oh wow, that must be it" and BE WRONG because i wasn't satisfied. I know what it's like to have that huge hole inside that I cannot fill because no matter how much I tried, it was never full. I know what it's like to be at the very end of my rope & have NO HOPE... so for those of you who may think I'm being a bigot or a zealot or close-minded or high & mighty... I'm speaking from my heart & from PERSONAL experience, not ANYTHING some pastor/reverend/priest/ etc said or did... I know what it's like to be so lost w/out hope & feeling like there was no where to turn... and i know what it's like to have that hole filled and be free from that pain & agony of the search & to be found because all along... He was there... I was never really alone... I just had to look up & take His hand... when I did - it was a whole new life... So I'm not some Bible scholar nor do I pretend to be, I'm not a theologian, I don't have all the answers & have peace that I never will - but I've personally experience/witnessed enough of the dots that I have the faith needed to know that they do all connect... and that I'm not supposed to have all the answers because then my reliance on Him is not needed.
|
|
|
Post by island tech on Aug 31, 2009 9:27:36 GMT -4
I think that I should follow up on some of my comments. I think that any pastor who is doing anything to disregard the teachings of Jesus and the Bible shouldn't be preaching. That goes for alcoholics, porn addictions, molestations. I'm not singling out one sin.
And as for CG's messages from some on the forum I'd like to say to those people I do not hate you or your actions. If that's what you do its fine I just don't agree with it.I'll add this, I love you and am commanded to!
|
|
|
Post by shadow1 on Aug 31, 2009 11:20:43 GMT -4
Only GOD can condemn someone to Hell after death...I'd assume ALL OF US can agree about that. You don't know me nearly well enough to assume what I might agree with. I agree Falgar. Though I've decided to not get involved in discussion (don't much enjoy the religious and political bantering) on this thread, I have been reading it only to see people's vast opinions on the subject. Waterlady's assumption as stated seems to insinuate that all believe in GOD and Heaven/Hell - I don't believe I would be assuming when saying that her assumption is false. My comments above by no means should reflect my religious beliefs one way or the other. My two cents and probably last post on the subject. Please continue on, as I have found the varied opinions interesting
|
|
|
Post by speedergurl68 on Aug 31, 2009 11:29:41 GMT -4
shorti darlin, my comments were generalized in nature as I feel that the tone of the thread was becoming very personal for some. I made my statements due to the fact that some comments here seem to be implying that by not agreeing with a certain person/group, etc., that it was condemnation. i just see an age old argument (and i do mean that literally) going around in the exact same circles it has been going in forever (it seems). i do not consider myself a scholar or any authority at all on religion...but i will say it has been a lifelong pursuit of mine to understand various viewpoints, cultures, lifestyles and religions other than mine. for myself, i find it far easier to understand what i believe in when i understand what others believe in. i do hope i have not offended anyone, as that is not my intention at all. of course, you know what they say about good intentions as i have stated earlier, i will concentrate on tending the weeds in my garden. there are more than enough there to keep me busy for the rest of my life.
|
|
|
Post by Water Lady on Aug 31, 2009 17:15:08 GMT -4
OK - Excuse me then! I should have said "some" of us.
But, if there is anyone out there who does have the power to condemn someone to hell after death...I'd sure be curious to know who it is...
I was referring to Funnel's post that stated those of us who disagree with her views, are somehow "condemning people to Hell after death."
|
|
|
Post by funnel101 on Aug 31, 2009 17:18:57 GMT -4
Sorry, Water Lady, I spoke sloppily. Obviously, only God has the power to condemn... What I should have said was that people who are attracted to members of the same-sex can feel like you're assuming they're going to be or should be condemned, either to a life without love, or to hell.
|
|
|
Post by Water Lady on Aug 31, 2009 22:45:20 GMT -4
UGH...Please see post #51
|
|
|
Post by falgar25 on Sept 1, 2009 5:51:30 GMT -4
UGH...Please see post #51 Please take a moment to visit post #54 while you are there.
|
|
|
Post by shorti on Sept 1, 2009 11:30:01 GMT -4
Sorry, Water Lady, I spoke sloppily. Obviously, only God has the power to condemn... What I should have said was that people who are attracted to members of the same-sex can feel like you're assuming they're going to be or should be condemned, either to a life without love, or to hell. See Funnel i don't agree entirely w/ this that they will have a life without love... you can still love & not being in any relationship and you can still have love & not be in a relationship regardless of sexual orientation. Look at nuns, priests, etc... they have love and are not in a relationship with another. Also - to put a spin on what you are saying... here's my viewpoint on the matter using your words be w/ some edits.. People w/ the ELCA have assumed that my beliefs should be condemned & told to be wrong & that they are taking the Christian "name" but going against what most Bible believing Christians agree is the authority over our lives The Bible - thus they are in fact, condemning us for our beliefs. See double edged sword... however, I stand by my belief and I will love the sinner but not the sin...
|
|
|
Post by Water Lady on Sept 1, 2009 20:51:01 GMT -4
UGH...Please see post #51 Please take a moment to visit post #54 while you are there. Falgar25, please now refer to post #59... I chose the word "ALL" instead of "SOME" and readily agreed to a poor choice of words... I am not however, playing-on words or trying to place words in the mouths of others.
|
|
|
Post by - on Sept 1, 2009 21:18:43 GMT -4
Shorti,
The ELCA is not condemning you nor your beliefs. Many denominations have altered the practices of the different faiths. As an example, the Episcopalian church is also accepting gay leaders to be ordained. A long time ago my dad was invited to participate in a service at The National Cathedral for the very first ordination of a female.
I meant no harm towards any ones beliefs or faiths. I respect that we are all different. I have so many friends, of faith and atheist as well.
I was just happy to see how receiving the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America came to the 21st century. That's all. It may not be someone else's belief. I'm curious if anyone else has discussed this with their Priest, Pastor, Rabbi, Minister, Leader, etc. And if you have I'd love to hear what they have to say.
This topic was not begun for attacks, it was a simple appreciation for my faith.
-cg
|
|
|
Post by shorti on Sept 1, 2009 22:21:12 GMT -4
I wasn't specifically stating that CG... what I was saying is that many have claimed that because of my beliefs I am condemning people I was simply turning the table so to speak... that in my eyes, by the ELCA stepping forward & claiming to be Christian & Bible believing (as I am ) is basically condemning me because I say they are wrong according to what is the basis of my belief..\. again not sure if it's coming out correctly...
in regards to female ordination... Biblically wrong... at least a female is not to "teach" in a public forum (ie pastor a church) While as a women who firmly believes in womens' rights... that was a tough pill for me to swallow... but then I had to use discernment... why did it make me uncomfortable? Because I (my selfish being) didn't like it. so with that I had to make a decision... if i accept the Bible as God-breathed & the ultimate authority for me; then i have to accept all of it... even the parts I don't like... I've learned that when I do that, I gain a better understanding of His word & it's relevance in my life. It's made me a better wife because I choose to be submissive to my husband but not in a way that the world sees submissiveness in today's age-but in a way that he is the head of our family & I am to be his helper (which creates a team right? there's always a captain), a better mother, a better friend, a better co-worker, etc... am I perfect? like i said before... nope... just a servant doing my best to serve my Lord. I wasn't making an attempt for an attack... I started w/ I don't want a whole debate thing... I posted because I firmly disagree w/ their actions and I believe it's a dangerous road they are headed down in light of Biblical Truth. I also posted in hopes that others - maybe you or maybe someone else reading this that may or may not have contributed to the discussion who was undecided on their feelings on this matter or on the matter of their faith in general would begin to seek on their own & begin to ask God for direction & clarification on this as well as other matters & develop a relationship w/ Him.
have i discussed this w/ my pastor & gotten his views on the ELCA's actions - yes... if you would like to know what he feels or says on the subject... PM me...
|
|
|
Post by island tech on Sept 2, 2009 11:06:44 GMT -4
I wasn't specifically stating that CG... what I was saying is that many have claimed that because of my beliefs I am condemning people I was simply turning the table so to speak... that in my eyes, by the ELCA stepping forward & claiming to be Christian & Bible believing (as I am ) is basically condemning me because I say they are wrong according to what is the basis of my belief..\. again not sure if it's coming out correctly... in regards to female ordination... Biblically wrong... at least a female is not to "teach" in a public forum (ie pastor a church) While as a women who firmly believes in womens' rights... that was a tough pill for me to swallow... but then I had to use discernment... why did it make me uncomfortable? Because I (my selfish being) didn't like it. so with that I had to make a decision... if i accept the Bible as God-breathed & the ultimate authority for me; then i have to accept all of it... even the parts I don't like... I've learned that when I do that, I gain a better understanding of His word & it's relevance in my life. It's made me a better wife because I choose to be submissive to my husband but not in a way that the world sees submissiveness in today's age-but in a way that he is the head of our family & I am to be his helper (which creates a team right? there's always a captain), a better mother, a better friend, a better co-worker, etc... am I perfect? like i said before... nope... just a servant doing my best to serve my Lord. I wasn't making an attempt for an attack... I started w/ I don't want a whole debate thing... I posted because I firmly disagree w/ their actions and I believe it's a dangerous road they are headed down in light of Biblical Truth. I also posted in hopes that others - maybe you or maybe someone else reading this that may or may not have contributed to the discussion who was undecided on their feelings on this matter or on the matter of their faith in general would begin to seek on their own & begin to ask God for direction & clarification on this as well as other matters & develop a relationship w/ Him. have i discussed this w/ my pastor & gotten his views on the ELCA's actions - yes... if you would like to know what he feels or says on the subject... PM me... Very well said!
|
|
|
Post by funnel101 on Sept 2, 2009 12:06:45 GMT -4
I think the main difference between us, shorti, is that you accept the Bible as your ultimate authority and I don't. I accept God as my ultimate authority, believe the Bible was written by divinely-inspired individuals, and that God has not stopped speaking when the Bible was finished (in other words, that there are prophets worth listening to who lived after the Bible).
A Quaker whose name I forget explained it something like this: "The Bible is like a finger pointing at the moon. Those who worship the finger miss what the finger is pointing to."
In other words, the Bible does not equal God.
Our positions are pretty irreconcilable.
|
|
|
Post by shorti on Sept 2, 2009 16:35:20 GMT -4
Funnel... just for clarification... I don't think the Bible = God... not at all... i believe God does still speak... I hear him - when I'm listening...
|
|
|
Post by - on Sept 2, 2009 20:30:09 GMT -4
I've sent the PM, and am hopefully awaiting an acceptance for lunch. -cg
|
|
|
Post by stephadele on Oct 10, 2009 14:46:36 GMT -4
Wow Didnt know people are still debating these things. Ive been out of mainstream Christianity a long long time. My UU church would never fit in. We have had female ministers since the 1800s. Half of us are pagan and dont believe in any human form of God, nor do many of us believe God is male. We have admitted gay people openly to the church for the last 25 or so years and our ministers have been performing marriage ceremonies for gay people for decades. My own minister who officiated my wedding is gay. Many of us dont believe in any Trinity or judgement day....since alot of us are Jewish and/or humanists. And we are supporters of gay marriage. I cant imagine going to a church without any of those principles.
|
|
|
Post by shorti on Oct 12, 2009 17:53:27 GMT -4
Wow Didnt know people are still debating these things. Ive been out of mainstream Christianity a long long time. My UU church would never fit in. We have had female ministers since the 1800s. Half of us are pagan and dont believe in any human form of God, nor do many of us believe God is male. We have admitted gay people openly to the church for the last 25 or so years and our ministers have been performing marriage ceremonies for gay people for decades. My own minister who officiated my wedding is gay. Many of us dont believe in any Trinity or judgement day....since alot of us are Jewish and/or humanists. And we are supporters of gay marriage. I cant imagine going to a church without any of those principles. I would be quick to point out that you may not want to speak for your whole church/religion unless you were a leader of it... I would also point out (and I may be wrong here) but I thought the Jewish did believe in a judgement day just not as Christians do... they don't believe Christ was teh Messiah - so when the Messiah comes, isn't that judgement day for them? so now i HAVE to ask... what do you believe in? If you don't believe God in a human form (Christ), you can't be a CHRISTian faith. You don't believe God as a male. You have pagan folks, homosexual folks, jewish folks and humanists folks as your "congregation". Your ministers have officiated gay marriages... which is... uh... illegal... you don't believe in a judgement day.... you dont' believe in the Trinity (which I get if you don't believe in God/Christ so i understand that)... so what DO you believe in? Do you use the Bible? Does your minister on Sunday refer to it? I guess this doesn't sit well with me... at least Funnel can direct you to what she does believe in, although well that's another thread all together, but she has a basis... this sounds like there's a bunch of people who are creating their own & we'll take a little bit of this & a little bit of that & some of this & some of that & oh i like that & this... and now you have a religion... So I ask stephadele - What exactly do you believe in? What do you think is going to happen to you when you die? Do you believe in heaven & hell?
|
|
|
Post by stephadele on Oct 15, 2009 22:12:06 GMT -4
In my church, we are all leaders...not just the minister..Many Jews attend UU churchs...and they dont neccessarily believe in any judgement day, many have been participants in pagan groups with myself...My husband is a UU who is also Jewish..He doesnt believe in any judgement day..That is a belief shared by certain Christians.....We UUs are all encouraged to speak for ourselves regarding what UU means to us...US churches have a class called Building Your Own Theology. We have an elected board make up of church members who monitor the activities of the ministers..Ministers report to the board once a month...I was a board member at my former church in Massachusetts... Officiating gay marriages by the clergy is not illegal in any state...Marriage is made legal by signing the legal document certificate in the court house, not by the minister officiating it.. There are many interpretations of the Bible, not just those of a certain type of Christian. My ministers refer to the Bible in their sermons..Just as often as they refer to the Talmud, the Koran, humanist teachings and that of civil rights ect... I dont believe in any human form of God..male or female....Nature is my god. Thats the beauty and the challenge of Universalist Unitarianism...We can believe what we feel personally is right for each one of us and are held together by 7 principles that govern our lives... We dont require dogma or a higher authority to tell us what to believe or how to believe. That is left to the individual to decide for herself...and to adhere to that personal responsibility to be true to oneself and others. ....Men arent considered authority figures over females simply because they are male...I would find it offensive that a male thinks he knows whats best for me and feels only he can speak for me simply because he is male.....I can speak for myself....I know many women who are fair superior ministers than some male ones...A calling to the ministry can occur to both men and women. Some women make better authority figures and ministers of all rather than teachers of children and other women......Many women dont like working with children as a "teacher" and would hate to be pegged and limited that way simply because they a women. I dont believe in any heaven or hell except the hell we create for ourselves and others right here on earth.. When I die, my body will deteriorate just like any dead matter that was formally living. I do believe in reincarnation so I think one's soul can occupy another person in the spiritual journey to learn life's lessons. You can check out the website for more info...www.uua.org. Its not for everyone, most people need someone telling them what to do and directing them as an authority with dogma but its great for independent thinkers such as myself who think outside the box...
|
|
|
Post by safetildecember on Oct 15, 2009 23:18:14 GMT -4
What are the 7 principles that govern your life in your religion?
|
|
|
Post by stephadele on Oct 16, 2009 9:02:03 GMT -4
UU 7 Principles
1. The inherent worth and dignity of every person.
2. Justice, equity and compassion in human relations.
3. Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations.
4. A free and responsible search for truth and meaning.
5. The right of conscious and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and society at large.
6. The goal of world community, with peace, liberty and justice for all.
7. Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
|
|