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Post by shorti on Oct 16, 2009 17:15:10 GMT -4
UU 7 Principles 1. The inherent worth and dignity of every person. 2. Justice, equity and compassion in human relations. 3. Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations. 4. A free and responsible search for truth and meaning. 5. The right of conscious and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and society at large. 6. The goal of world community, with peace, liberty and justice for all. 7. Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part. I guess Item #4 is one that it would get hairy... what is truth? Who defines it?
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Post by shorti on Oct 16, 2009 17:19:26 GMT -4
And for the record... i am an independent thinker who does think outside the box... a friend of mine said this not too long ago & I'm stealing it...
If Jesus is a crutch... then I never want to walk again...
See my opinion... and don't take this wrongly... but I believe that those who can find fault w/ the Bible, but can believe in everything else that is written, when it's been proven that the Bible is almost error free & the theology & artifacts are there to support, are those who have a hard time facing the truths in the Bible that they don't like or don't make them "feel good". And it's just easier to "Build your own Theology" from the basis of other sources & sometimes people who don't have the back up to with it.
Like I said before - one day we will all know for sure...
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Post by funnel101 on Oct 16, 2009 18:15:06 GMT -4
Um, I don't think it's been proven that the Bible is "almost error free". What do you mean by that?
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Post by stephadele on Oct 16, 2009 20:10:32 GMT -4
Shorti...I suggest you read up on what Building Your Own Theology is before making assumptions about it. Its actually quite challenging and sometimes difficult to build ones own theology because you must look inside yourself and your heart and search your values to see what fits for you and not use religion and beliefs as cheat sheet "cliff notes"....Ive taken the class before so I know it requires some thought, work and effort.... The Bible was written by men, so its not "almost error free" for me. With the exception, of course, of the Books of Ruth and Esther...and probably other books written by women disciples that have been lost or destroyed. Im not sure what you mean about finding fault with the Bible but UUs are free to interpret it as they wish. We arent interested in knowing about any second coming because we dont believe it exists in the first place.. Interpreting the Bible doesnt mean that we "believe in everything" or that we are trying to take the easy way out...Rather its the opposite because no one is there spelling it all out for us ....And sometimes UU people have to take the lead and go against powerful cultural and childhood religious pressures of conformity to follow their spiritual growth. Its really not a big deal to us how someone interprets the Bible. Personal and spiritual growth and doing good works for others like Civil Rights, helping the homeless and mentally ill and Native Americans and fighting racism and social problems is more important to UUs, not comforming to some specific religious beliefs. We believe this is what makes anyone a good person...Developing yourself and taking care of yourself mentally , physically, psychologically and spiritually so you can pass on what you can to help others find their way and rally around them when they are oppressed... Social justice work is a big part of being a UU...Many UUs were involved in the lunch counter sit ins and freedom rides during the Civil Rights era...Some were killed for their beliefs and social justice work. That fits very well with my values as a healthcare provider who assists people of many cultures and socioeconomic backgrounds.
As my former minister used to say when ending the sermon: "The sermon has ended...Let our service begin"
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Post by AquaHolic on Oct 16, 2009 20:35:36 GMT -4
Wow....I am impressed with this conversation....and all of a sudden I don't feel so alone anymore. I hope all of you can continue with the respect you have shown each other so far..as this thread has turned into something very interesting and may help a lost soul find where they belong.
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Post by funnel101 on Oct 16, 2009 20:55:11 GMT -4
Barb: any Sunday, you're always welcome to attend Meeting for Worship at Third Haven, my Quaker meeting. It's in Easton, on Washington Street (about half a mile past the hospital); Meeting starts at 10. I know there's also a Unitarian Universalist Church in Easton, too, though I don't know where. I think their service is in the afternoon, though: one of the members of my Meeting sometimes worships at Third Haven in the morning and then with the UUs in the afternoon (her husband is a UU).
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Post by safetildecember on Oct 16, 2009 21:10:38 GMT -4
What does error free mean exactly in terms of the King James Version of The Bible? It is a book written by numerous men and some of them tell different stories of the same event but I still don't know if that is what you consider error.
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Post by stephadele on Oct 16, 2009 21:38:54 GMT -4
I just checked and the UU church in Easton is on Route 5o just south of town. Most UU services are held in the AM..if its a small church its probably around 10 or 11 am. Larger churches have two services, around 9 and 11 respectively..
Safe .. I think your question becomes even more complicated when you consider the other version used by Catholics..the non King James version that was written before the Protestant Reformation in Europe.
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Post by safetildecember on Oct 16, 2009 22:43:58 GMT -4
I just checked and the UU church in Easton is on Route 5o just south of town. Most UU services are held in the AM..if its a small church its probably around 10 or 11 am. Larger churches have two services, around 9 and 11 respectively.. Safe .. I think your question becomes even more complicated when you consider the other version used by Catholics..the non King James version that was written before the Protestant Reformation in Europe. Latin Vulgate or Douay-Rheims ? It could depend on what type of Catholic. www.bible-researcher.com/romcath.html
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Post by shorti on Oct 17, 2009 10:01:50 GMT -4
Catholics have their own Bible - yes... it has 5 or 7 books in it that most Bibles do not. However those books have been shown that there were written long after the books that are in the Bible now. They also, when studied, form to alot of the Catholicism way & rituals, etc. As far as error free... Since you are an independent thinker... i would suggest a book which I've suggested before... Author is Lee Stroebel - Case for Christ. He was/is an investigative journalist who was a self-proclaimed atheist - who set out to prove that his wife's religion was not right & that it was all a bunch of hooey (like that technical term there )and turned out to find out that yes, the Bible is in fact almost error free, that the archeological evidence is there, etc. Read it, it's a great look at this mans journey as well. He has others also... Case for a Creator & Case for Faith I believe.
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Post by funnel101 on Oct 17, 2009 12:42:17 GMT -4
Looks like the UU church has its services at 10 AM; they must have been doing an afternoon worship when they were building their new building and using Third Haven's facilities. Here's Easton's UU church website: www.uufeaston.org/And Third Haven Quaker website: www.thirdhaven.org/
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Post by stephadele on Oct 17, 2009 12:53:05 GMT -4
I was thinking of the Latin version, Safe Shorti...I dont really need to read a book by an Evangelical Christian because I know pretty much what what he will say and preach to me. I grew up in Texas among alot of Southern Baptists and Evangelical Christians and Pentcostals and read several of their books in college..so Im familiar with his beliefs already. With all due respect to your religion, that doesnt interest me and I consider it boring...like reading fantasy.......I dislike it when people try to convert me or tell me my religion is wrong....A problem I see with alot of dogmatic Christian religions....Im not saying you are doing this but Ive met alot of "Christians" in past years who tried to do that.. As long as people author the Bible, it is not error free...It has been changed and translated throughout the centuries, with a slant and a human bias on whoever is in power....Texts from the women disciples were taken out by male disciples like Paul, who seemed to be rather hateful of women....So we really dont know what was included and what was taken out...So The fact that the author is human is proof he is biased in his writing.
As far as the Catholic Bible is concerned , what was written in it occured way before the Protestant Reformation...Before the Reformation, there was no King James Bible...Catholics use the most orginal one written before that time...Edited by the disciples and various male clergy throughout the centuries...My mother is Catholic, I grew up Catholic, and she has studied this extensively..... In the 1500s, Martin Luther took out some of those books and broke with Rome, thus starting the Reformation....What was created in the aftermath was the King James Bible that many Protestant Christians read today....So I cant agree with you that 5 or 7 books were taken out of the Catholic Bible after the King James Bible was written....that is false.. ...Martin Luther was responsible for that in the 1500s when he legitimized the widespread birth of Protestant religions...There was no widespread Reformation before or after Martin Lurther, from a historical standpoint, although small groups certainly worshipped secretly in the 1500s and 1600s....Our Pilgrims who came to Massachusetts fall in this category of people......UU began in Europe during this time period also, thus it is considered a Protestant religion.......Whoever told you that books were taken from the Catholic Bible after Reformation needs to read a history of Catholicism....
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Post by speedergurl68 on Oct 17, 2009 13:18:08 GMT -4
What stephadele has stated about the Catholic Bible and when the King James Version of the Bible was written is actually true.
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Post by shorti on Oct 17, 2009 16:03:45 GMT -4
I never claimed to know the time frame of the when the books were taken out... however, there are 5 or 7 books in the catholic bible that are not any other Bible. Please re-read what I said about it.
As far as your defensiveness... I am not trying to "convert" you & the fact that you would say ..."I dont really need to read a book by an Evangelical Christian because I know pretty much what what he will say and preach to me." tells me that your are not an independent thinker - or someone who would be able to discuss any religious debate, because it's your way & you will refuse to even entertain another. But I would tend to believe you know NOTHING about Lee Stroebel or those books. They are quite interesting reads. However, see you & I are alot alike... I used to be you... So if you knew me "then" and know me "now" you will see nothing other than a radical transformation that isn't fantasy - it's the ONLY thing that made/makes sense. I've been there... the paganism, the looking into all other religions, buddism, hinduism, new age theories, judiasm, catholicism, so forth & so on... so I know - don't talk to me like I don't know EXACTLY what you are saying... I've made those same statements myself - not too long ago & even on KIO. However, when i was "searching" I would never look at anything written by or in anyway, shape or form possibly biased by a Christian - because I knew that already. I knew what they would teach me & what they would preach... sound familiar??? I had a book (still do actually) "A Brief Guide to Beliefs" and it covers the big 10 - i went through all of them EXCEPT Christianity for the reasons I just stated. So i know all too well what you are saying. More than you'd like to think. Ever heard of the Celestine Prophecy? Yep - been there - thought that may have something to it... What about the DaVinci Code??? While fictional - makes sense - especially to someone like you or me... what an easier way to debunk the Christ of Christianity & validate my arguements!?!?
Catholicism is it's own thing in my eyes. I DO NOT have to confess my sins to a priest because he is "higher" up than me. I can have that conversation w/ my Lord all by myself. I DO NOT need to have the priest tell me what is in the Bible - I'm capable of picking it up & reading it myself. I don't believe in a hierarchy. I believe Luther did just this... he picked up the Bible & went "What? wait a minute here!" Hence him breaking away.
As far as women who wrote parts of the Bible... it's funny you only seem to believe that Ruth & Esther are error free or "right" - why because they are women? What a pathetic excuse. I'm a woman, however I have no problem understanding that back then, women were not in positions of power or anything like that because of the times - so it's natural that there weren't many women authors. So men were not good enough in your eyes to write a holy book, I mean they were the ones chosen. Heck not many women were even educated in those days.
As far as your speculation that there are other books that women wrote that were in the Bible that men removed... provide me proof... hard, cold, factual, verified proof... not some conspiracy theory offered by a conspiracy theorist. run through respectable historians.
The problem that most folks have with believing the Bible is that they question if it was actually God-breathed. I know it was-so do many others. Meaning that God inspired man to write most of these books. Some of them are first hand accounts. The same story, more or less, different perspectives by different people. No different than you & I watching a football game from 2 different ends of the field, we'd have different eye witness viewpoints.
As far as conversion... I know that i know that i know what's going to happen to me & where I'm going. I have seen enough "dots" to know that they connect & are beginning to... but as far as anyone else... while, yes, as a Christian, I am to "go forth & make disciples" but here's what most folks miss... I cannot change your heart, I cannot "convert" you, I can do nothing other than offer a different view point (Truth). The ONLY One who can do all of this is God. But you would have to be willing to listen to something that is contrary to what you think is right. And until you do that, He can't help you.
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Post by safetildecember on Oct 17, 2009 16:14:29 GMT -4
I wonder if Mary was raped and that is why they fled because she would have been honor killed? I wonder if Jesus had children? Didn't they find the tomb of his brother? Just wondering.
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Post by funnel101 on Oct 17, 2009 16:33:35 GMT -4
The problem that most folks have with believing the Bible is that they question if it was actually God-breathed. I know it was-so do many others. Meaning that God inspired man to write most of these books. Some of them are first hand accounts. The same story, more or less, different perspectives by different people. No different than you & I watching a football game from 2 different ends of the field, we'd have different eye witness viewpoints. I believe this, too. But the thing is, there are a LOT of books that, in particular, were left out of the New Testament. So I am somewhat skeptical that the books that were put in by Emperor Constantine and his Council of Nicaea were the MOST Spirit-led out of all the Gospels and Letters floating around at the time. This is why I'm such a firm believer in continuing revelation. God's story isn't done yet, so why should Spirit-led writing end with Revelation? And your perspectives idea is the exact same way I understand Holy Writings from other religions, by the way.
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Post by safetildecember on Oct 17, 2009 16:46:20 GMT -4
Extra biblical revelation in Christianity is often a sign of a cult.
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Post by speedergurl68 on Oct 17, 2009 16:54:40 GMT -4
My friends...in the end it all comes down to a matter of faith. Faith, as we all know is the act of believing in the absence of proof. Religions, to me, are just mankind's way of putting God in a box. Faith, on the other hand puts ME where I belong.
1 Corinthians 13:12, answers all questions regarding God, for me...."For now we see through a glass, darkly". "How does that answer anything?", you might ask. Well, I don't know how many of you have ever put on a welding helmet...but you should try it some time. For even though the lens is made of glass and is somewhat transparent, when you look through it you can only see shadows and outlines of things. Nothing is clear or easily discernible. That is until you look at the light.
We are blessed to live in a country that allows us all our personal freedom to choose whichever religion we feel led to choose. We do not have to agree with one another or understand one another. As long as we love one another, our job is done.
I know what and why and Who I believe in. That is enough for me. No religion should condemn any other religion in my opinion. The best way to show someone what you believe....is simply to live it. Christians, Jews, Pagans, Buddhists, and all the multitude of other religions out there, will have our questions answered in the end.
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Post by stephadele on Oct 17, 2009 17:14:13 GMT -4
Shorti...Oh please...You did not "used to be me"...That is incredibly arrogant...At 48, I have 14 more years of adulthood ahead of you.. You dont know me or have had my experiences. I dont know you or have had your experiences. And I did make that clear I knew you werent trying to convert you...so who is being defensive here? Choosing not to read Evangelical Christian material doesnt make me less indepdendent. Rather it shows I dont follow dogma or need a religious authority figure to tell me what to think and believe....Ive read it plenty and have made my choice...Accept that and deal with your own feelings around that. Why dont you check the uua website Ive encouraged people to read?...Why dont you read about my religion, if you are as "independent" as you say you are?... And please reread my post. I never said the Book of Esther or Ruth was right or "error free" All humans who write the Bible are biased...thats what I said. I dont need to ask "him" to help me. My personal god is not female or male. I get what I need from years of my own soul searching and questioning.....Im very happy and relieved to find my religion and other liked minded people who think like me when I did at age 34.,....It isnt for you to say I need to listen to "Him" in order to get some enlightenment or wisdom...I get wisdom in ways you probably couldnt even fathom....Very presumptous...Better to be content just looking after your own spiritual life rather than worrying about someone elses..
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Post by speedergurl68 on Oct 17, 2009 18:07:10 GMT -4
Shorti, darlin, I wish everyone could know you...it's a blessing. I know and understand what your heart is telling you and that you are saying these things in love. Anyone that knows you also knows you are neither arrogant nor presumptuous and are an amazingly beautiful person. stephadele, while I cannot say I have walked a mile in your shoes, I grew up in the deep south and was victimized by the Southern Baptist organization myself for decades. I know the anger and disappointment, pain and disillusionment it caused me. I understand why you feel so strongly against it at least on some level. Personally, it took me years to release that negativity so that I could again find my own peace. I still struggle with it on occasion. We are all human...and imperfect after all The words of Mahatma Gandhi, "Nobody can hurt me without my permission.", have almost become my mantra, of sorts. I would like to ask you to pray, meditate or offer a thought for me, to whomever you choose, as I continue to work on what troubles me. I will do the same for each of you. For as different as we all are, we are identical in that we all have struggles that we are facing.
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Post by safetildecember on Oct 17, 2009 18:26:39 GMT -4
Shorti, darlin, I wish everyone could know you...it's a blessing. I know and understand what your heart is telling you and that you are saying these things in love. Anyone that knows you also knows you are neither arrogant nor presumptuous and are an amazingly beautiful person. stephadele, while I cannot say I have walked a mile in your shoes, I grew up in the deep south and was victimized by the Southern Baptist organization myself for decades. I know the anger and disappointment, pain and disillusionment it caused me. I understand why you feel so strongly against it at least on some level. Personally, it took me years to release that negativity so that I could again find my own peace. I still struggle with it on occasion. We are all human...and imperfect after all The words of Mahatma Gandhi, "Nobody can hurt me without my permission.", have almost become my mantra, of sorts. I would like to ask you to pray, meditate or offer a thought for me, to whomever you choose, as I continue to work on what troubles me. I will do the same for each of you. For as different as we all are, we are identical in that we all have struggles that we are facing. If it snows tomorrow or if hell freezes over, we will know she said one for me.
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Post by speedergurl68 on Oct 17, 2009 18:30:23 GMT -4
If it snows tomorrow or if hell freezes over, we will know she said one for me. I am most sincere in what I said. And...if it snows...that will be one of my prayers for ME being answered Of course, if hell does freeze over...I am going to be very, very busy doing a lot of unpleasant things!! LOL!
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Post by shorti on Oct 17, 2009 18:46:32 GMT -4
actually age really has nothing to do with this... what you've been through vs. what I've been through... not too much either... What you are missing simply is this... I've been where you are in your faith/religion/whatever you want to call it... I've been there... and like SG68 so eloquently put it... it was foggy & hazy & nothing really made sense to me...ok i take that back... it did, but there was always something..... missing... and then I saw the light. My reference to the "convert" was simply that while no I wasn't trying, nor anyone else here - but you referred to others that had... THEY CAN'T. Like i mentioned.. it can only be done by One. In which He gave you free will to do as you please & He will not force you to love Him because then it's not authentic.
Refusing to even entertain someone elses argument by reading up on offered sources to explain the reason why i say the Bible has been proven to be almost error free is incredibly close-minded. It would be like me trying to have a conversation with someone about their faith & NOT looking into what they believe so I can have some sort of comprehension. As far as UU site... I've attended the one in Annapolis as well as one in VA Beach and 1 in York, PA... so sorry - I don't see eye-to-eye w/ that - still something was missing & I wasn't satisfied. So I continued to search.
Now on to your arguement about "all humans who wrote the Bible were biased..." so, you, being a human, who i suppose at some point in your life read the Bible or at least parts of it, as well as many other books I'm assuming... are biased... hmmm... kinda makes my argument...
See I'm not attacking... I'm sharing what I believe & what I disagree with in a non-confrontation manner... why??? cause that's what my God tells me to do... what about yours? does your god/whatever you believe in, tell you that if someone disagrees with you & may hit a little close to home because they've been down that road and didn't like it that an attack is necessary? Really??
Instead of getting into a heated discussion here I'll end with this... I'm sticking with the guy who was beaten so badly his skin was coming off & organs were falling out, who was nailed to a cross and died and then was put into a tomb that was heavily guarded & rose 3 days later - no body in the tomb - then was witnessed by a whole lot of people who also witnessed him die... I will also stick w/ the guy who over 300 prophecies were written about that CAME TRUE...
yeah, that's who I'm sticking with... and like I said before - if you want to think that I'm using that as a crutch - I NEVER WANT TO WALK AGAIN...
I do my best to live out what a true Biblical Christian is every day & yes I fall... but apparently, like SG, you too have been burned by religion... Christianity isn't about religion - it's about a Relationship - a personal one - with Christ. and until you can fathom that... I'll just have to pray for you...
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Post by safetildecember on Oct 17, 2009 18:50:58 GMT -4
actually age really has nothing to do with this... what you've been through vs. what I've been through... not too much either... What you are missing simply is this... I've been where you are in your faith/religion/whatever you want to call it... I've been there... and like SG68 so eloquently put it... it was foggy & hazy & nothing really made sense to me...ok i take that back... it did, but there was always something..... missing... and then I saw the light. My reference to the "convert" was simply that while no I wasn't trying, nor anyone else here - but you referred to others that had... THEY CAN'T. Like i mentioned.. it can only be done by One. In which He gave you free will to do as you please & He will not force you to love Him because then it's not authentic. Refusing to even entertain someone elses argument by reading up on offered sources to explain the reason why i say the Bible has been proven to be almost error free is incredibly close-minded. It would be like me trying to have a conversation with someone about their faith & NOT looking into what they believe so I can have some sort of comprehension. As far as UU site... I've attended the one in Annapolis as well as one in VA Beach and 1 in York, PA... so sorry - I don't see eye-to-eye w/ that - still something was missing & I wasn't satisfied. So I continued to search. Now on to your arguement about "all humans who wrote the Bible were biased..." so, you, being a human, who i suppose at some point in your life read the Bible or at least parts of it, as well as many other books I'm assuming... are biased... hmmm... kinda makes my argument... See I'm not attacking... I'm sharing what I believe & what I disagree with in a non-confrontation manner... why??? cause that's what my God tells me to do... what about yours? does your god/whatever you believe in, tell you that if someone disagrees with you & may hit a little close to home because they've been down that road and didn't like it that an attack is necessary? Really?? Instead of getting into a heated discussion here I'll end with this... I'm sticking with the guy who was beaten so badly his skin was coming off & organs were falling out, who was nailed to a cross and died and then was put into a tomb that was heavily guarded & rose 3 days later - no body in the tomb - then was witnessed by a whole lot of people who also witnessed him die... I will also stick w/ the guy who over 300 prophecies were written about that CAME TRUE... yeah, that's who I'm sticking with... and like I said before - if you want to think that I'm using that as a crutch - I NEVER WANT TO WALK AGAIN... I do my best to live out what a true Biblical Christian is every day & yes I fall... but apparently, like SG, you too have been burned by religion... Christianity isn't about religion - it's about a Relationship - a personal one - with Christ. and until you can fathom that... I'll just have to pray for you... Praise THE LORD shorti, Praise THE LORD!
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Post by shorti on Oct 17, 2009 18:56:47 GMT -4
i'm hoping that's sincere... But yes, I'm with ya... Praise the Lord... that I can say what I have said, that I can be the person I am now... that He has been SO INCREDIBLY patient with me that I don't deserve the mercy & grace He has given me.
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