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Post by Seat Belt Victim on Sept 18, 2006 16:21:05 GMT -4
Law enforcement should lead by example not by arrogance. The next State Trooper I see driving the speed limit will be the first. If not flashing, or responding to an emergency call, the Police car is just another car, and must obey the law like everyone else. Song by Security Pete "Don't do as I do, do as I say, I'm the long long arm of the law"...............Seat Belt Victim
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Post by bchevy on Sept 18, 2006 19:15:34 GMT -4
Law enforcement should lead by example not by arrogance. The next State Trooper I see driving the speed limit will be the first. If not flashing, or responding to an emergency call, the Police car is just another car, and must obey the law like everyone else. Just today I had an AA County Sheriff on my tail, All the way down I-97, 75 MPH in traffic. I got over when I could, he went right up to the next car's bumper... No LIghts, No siren, No emergency- probly on a Donut run, they just lit the light at Krispy Kreme, oh yeah- that's the other direction They do need to lead by example.......
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Post by Jason on Sept 20, 2006 15:01:15 GMT -4
For the record, when you see a police officer driving above the speed limit on major highways like 95, 97 and 50 it's to prevent major traffic backups. If a cop went the speed limit no one would pass him and traffic would be a mess because of it. I'm not saying it's legal, I'm just saying it's a generally accepted practice.
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Post by bchevy on Sept 20, 2006 17:21:22 GMT -4
For the record, when you see a police officer driving above the speed limit on major highways like 95, 97 and 50 it's to prevent major traffic backups. If a cop went the speed limit no one would pass him and traffic would be a mess because of it. I'm not saying it's legal, I'm just saying it's a generally accepted practice. That doesn't wash with me, as I said above- I was in traffic at about 75 mph, this sheriff's car was pushing people out of his way, tailgating tham and me until I moved, and on he went to the next car. That's not a generally accepted practice in my book, add a lane change to the speeding & tailgating and you have "AGGRESIVE DRIVING"......
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Post by babs on Sept 20, 2006 18:31:57 GMT -4
crossley never cared he was seeking weapons of mass seatbelts maybe gary hoffman will succeed with community policing! police know your people within the community & the bad wo'nt have a place to hide***********
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Post by on inside on Sept 20, 2006 19:32:18 GMT -4
Gary is the sergeant who is in charge of the community policing. He is Crossley's major traffic ticket guru. Sheriff's office does not have a community relations unit. They find out where the traffic complaints are and write radar tickets. Sergeant Tarr would also send Deputies to the meetings and tell them to find out who the biggest complainers are in the community so they could catch them and write them tickets. This is done to shut the complainers up.
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Post by falgar25 on Sept 20, 2006 20:24:05 GMT -4
I was just about to disagree with bchevy and then thought about it again. Who do I talk to about getting my illegal activities redefined to be "generally accepted practices?"
Disclaimer: I honestly believe speed limits are set too low both on the highway and in neighborhoods. Worry about teaching your children and pets to stay out of the street, stop worrying about my speed, and I'll worry about not driving through your yard.
BUT, if there is any reason at all for the posted speed limits (other than to derive income from tickets) then it must be for safety. Someone much smarter than all of us determined that driving any faster than the posted speed would certainly lead to danger, destruction, or death! The Govt. is looking out for us and we should be thankful.
So what in the world is going on when a police officer follows a generally accepted practice in an attempt to encourage us to do something that has been determined to be harmful to our health? Shouldn't the police officers and others in positions of authority be the last ones to violate the law? Shouldn't they really be held to a higher standard?
If those who are sworn to uphold the law are known to break the laws, then why would anyone expect the rest of us to obey them? If the Trooper thought 65 mph on 97 was too slow, that's just too bad! He should drive 65 just like he is supposed to expect the rest of us to do.
Again, I believe speed limits are set too low. 65 mph on 97, 55 mph on 50, 50 mph down Rt. 8, all of them are low. However, those are the laws, they're not supposed to be arbitrary, and the police should be the FIRST to obey them.
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Post by bchevy on Sept 20, 2006 20:48:29 GMT -4
While I agree speed limits are set too low on the highways, the neighborhoods are just fine, It's 25mph in front of my house, and they do 40 all day and night, it's a short road.
BUT, "I THINK" (that makes this MY opinion) raising the limits on the highways would push the limits that people think they can drive, Increasing the number of non-drivers, and idiots on the road that don't know the limits of their vehicle, resulting in even more accidents.
Does ANYONE remember hearing about overturned vehicles on a weekly basis 10+ years ago? What's up with that? (And no, it's not my Suburban's fault)
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Post by bchevy on Sept 20, 2006 20:50:17 GMT -4
Gary is the sergeant who is in charge of the community policing. He is Crossley's major traffic ticket guru. Sheriff's office does not have a community relations unit. They find out where the traffic complaints are and write radar tickets. Sergeant Tarr would also send Deputies to the meetings and tell them to find out who the biggest complainers are in the community so they could catch them and write them tickets. This is done to shut the complainers up.
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Post by Jason on Sept 21, 2006 12:49:12 GMT -4
For the record, when you see a police officer driving above the speed limit on major highways like 95, 97 and 50 it's to prevent major traffic backups. If a cop went the speed limit no one would pass him and traffic would be a mess because of it. I'm not saying it's legal, I'm just saying it's a generally accepted practice. That doesn't wash with me, as I said above- I was in traffic at about 75 mph, this sheriff's car was pushing people out of his way, tailgating tham and me until I moved, and on he went to the next car. That's not a generally accepted practice in my book, add a lane change to the speeding & tailgating and you have "AGGRESIVE DRIVING"...... Well, considering the normal flow of traffic on 97 is closer to 80mph... As far as it being too dangerous to raise the speed limits, I disagree. I lived in Europe for several years, and the minimum speed limit over there is about 70mph. In Germany there are no limits on certain highways, and I think if you were to do a study you'd find that they don't have any more/less accidents than we do. It's all about proper driver training and stricter laws. No more teenagers getting licenses after 3 months of drivers ed videos, no cell phones while you're driving etc. I also like Germanys policy that if you get found guilty of a DUI you lose your license for life. We just need to teach people that driving is a serious matter, and that it's a privilege not a right.
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Post by falgar25 on Sept 21, 2006 12:50:05 GMT -4
BUT, "I THINK" (that makes this MY opinion) raising the limits on the highways would push the limits that people think they can drive, Increasing the number of non-drivers, and idiots on the road that don't know the limits of their vehicle, resulting in even more accidents. I wonder what would happen if we removed speed limits. I wonder if traffic wouldn't find a comfortable speed without having all the signs and tickets. On roads like 50, 95, 97, etc. 70 mph just feels about right and seems to be a pretty common speed. My vehicle can go faster, and I'm usually already breaking the speed limit, but that just feels like a good speed. Other roads feel right at other speeds - there's no way I would try doing 70 on Rt. 18! So I wonder if people wouldn't drive at a safe and reasonable speed if they weren't constantly being told to drive slower. Of course, there are always idiots who will push things beyond resonable limits. And there will always be new drivers who haven't figured out what reasonable limits are. I just hate the least common denominator approach where you wind up penalizing the many for the actions of the few.
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Post by ljp on Sept 30, 2006 19:58:08 GMT -4
I agree on the AGRESSIVE DRIVING practices for the police. On my way to Easton the other day I had both a QA cty sherrif and right behind him a State Trooper both riding so close I couldn't see either front grill in my rearview practically ran me off the road and I was doing 65! As for the police situation in the county I will say that once my alarm went off by mistake once I had it first installed.... 55 minutes later the police showed up I can only imagine what would have been left of me OR my house in that hour!!
But I remember just before the last election Crossley talking about short staffed departments. The County doesn't pay very much and so they hire police only to have them leave after a short period to go to a higher paying county... maybe this is why they are so few and far between?
As for the traffic calming: we attempted to have them installed in our community as we had a problem with dump traffic speeding thru on Saturday mornings dropping their garbage in front of our houses, the county told us no because the EMS equipment couldn't pass over them. We have petitioned it a few times. no luck
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Post by christarr on Oct 3, 2006 14:26:49 GMT -4
In reply to "on insides" post about me. I have never nor will I ever order a deputy to issue a ticket for any violation, that is the deputies descretion. I also can not recall sending a deputy to a Cloverfields meeting in many years. I am not sure were this information comes from but it is false. It is true however that I have stopped persons in the past who have said they were the ones who have complained about speeding, and they were issued tickets as well as the others. Does complaining about it allow them to then speed? I do send deputies on a regular basis to any were in the county that recive complaints about speeding to address the complaints. Any person who has talked to me about a complaint or at a meeting knows I encourage everyone to call the Sheriff's Office it is the only way we know were the problems are.
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Post by uvrays on Oct 3, 2006 16:20:24 GMT -4
So, Chris, is it true about the quota system?
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Post by christarr on Oct 3, 2006 20:36:14 GMT -4
Good Question. No. The system that has been used for about three years at the sheriff's office is the 80% of avererage system. This system has been before the State apeals court and has been deemed legal. Under this system at the end of each quarter numbers in 17 areas are totaled from all the deputies (not supervisors) in the patrol divison only (20 if fully staffed) the average of each area is worked out then 80% of that number is worked out. That number is what is deemed acceptable for that area. These numbers can change from quarter to quarter and depending the activity of the deputies in that quarter. So they as a group sets the numbers. For one area traffic tickets in the 2nd quarter of this year the 80% of average on this was 19 for the 3 months. This works out to .4 tickets a shift. This information is placed into a quarterly evaluation that also includes areas such as comunity polcing, investigations. The quarterly evaluations are then used for the yearly pay for performance evaluation (the same for the rest of the county). In this evaluation there are 27 areas to rate them from 1 to 4. Out of these areas one is enforces traffic laws that encludes tickets warnings eros's, parking tickets, and DWI's.. And one is enforces criminal laws. These would be the areas covered by the numbers from the 80% of average system. All employers need away to gauge the work that is being completed by the employees, to insure the stakeholders (the public in this case) are reciving what they are paying for. I hope this answers the question even if it is long winded.
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Post by on the inside on Oct 4, 2006 8:13:51 GMT -4
When a law enforcement officer is given oreders or memos to write a specific number of tickets this is a QUOTA. When a agency evaluates their personnel based on the number of tickets, arrests and repair orders issued it is a QUOTA. When law enforcement officers are given punitive penalties for not writing the numbers wanted by the administration it is plainly wrong. We can make excuses and try to hide it, however, what would Deputies and former Deputies say if they were asked this with confidentiality. I know they would not agree with the explanation of averages that mr. Tarr is saying.
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Post by christarr on Oct 4, 2006 9:14:21 GMT -4
I agree with the defenition given of a quota by the above post. I also agree that it is wrong. However if you would read what I said you would see that the agency does not set the numbers the deputies do with there work. So in reality if they do not like the numbers in an area all they have to do is work together and they can lower it by not producing in that area. an under 80% in any one area does not hurt a deputy, it can draw attention when you are low in many areas. even. then you can have a bad quarter and still have three good quarters this will even aout in the eval. Any one who would like futher information on this system please feel free to contact me, I would be glad to explain it further.
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Post by falgar25 on Oct 4, 2006 21:25:24 GMT -4
I agree with the defenition given of a quota by the above post. I also agree that it is wrong. However if you would read what I said you would see that the agency does not set the numbers the deputies do with there work. So in reality if they do not like the numbers in an area all they have to do is work together and they can lower it by not producing in that area. an under 80% in any one area does not hurt a deputy, it can draw attention when you are low in many areas. even. then you can have a bad quarter and still have three good quarters this will even aout in the eval. Any one who would like futher information on this system please feel free to contact me, I would be glad to explain it further. It is great that you are posting here and trying to help us to understand this situation. I truly mean that. What I still don't understand is what you are proposing above and how it differs from a quota system. You write: "the agency does not set the numbers the deputies do with there work" Doesn't this mean that the agency doesn't pick the quota number out of a hat, it evaluates the deputies against a number derived from past performance? Should anti-quota people feel better simply because the number isn't random? You write: "an under 80% in any one area does not hurt a deputy, it can draw attention when you are low in many areas" Doesn't this mean that the deputies are evaluated against a set of numbers (quotas) not just one? Should the anti-quota people feel better simply because there are several non-random numbers and not just one? You write: "all they have to do is work together and they can lower it by not producing in that area" Are you really suggesting that it would be acceptable for the deputies to conspire to not enforce the traffic laws so that one or more of the several non-random numbers against which they will be evaluated become lower? I don't want a traffic ticket any more than anyone else does; I sure don't want the deputies out there ticketing everyone. I honestly believe there are more important things for the deputies to be doing than writing traffic tickets. I also completely understand that there must be a way to evaluate employees and I don't have a clue how it should work in the Sheriff's Dept. However, if it looks like a duck and it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, don't tell me it's an Anas platyrhynchos and expect me not to hunt it. (more simply: you can explain how a number isn't a number, but if it's a count of something that will be used to evaluate performance, then it's a quota)
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Post by Brian Schwaab on Oct 5, 2006 8:27:21 GMT -4
; In response to Falgar25 I just was told about this post by a Deputy I once worked with. When I get a chance later I will post something about how the quota system works regarding monthly Deputy Stats and the "Pay For Performance" evaluation sytem in Queen Anne's County Sheriff's Office.
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Post by Eric on Oct 5, 2006 18:18:58 GMT -4
So Brian Schwaab, Tell us why you decided to leave and go work for Anne Arundel County Sheriff's Office. Wasn't it your decision that you planned on running for sheriff this year? Why didn't you stay around and make all the changes you are preaching about? I think that the deputies are doing a great job, and am glad that we have two qualified candidates. We are looking forward to their changes, either of them.
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Post by Brian Schwaab on Oct 5, 2006 20:59:52 GMT -4
Eric, in response to your question why I left the Queen Anne's County Sheriff's Office. There are several reasons why and if you know me you know that I will tell you straight. Whether you know me or not I will say that I enjoyed working in the county and dealing with the people I came in contact with on a daily basis. As a career law enforcement officer with 20+ years I gained quite a bit of experience as a Police Officer and Detective in the Baltimore Police department. I could have used this in the agency, however, under Sheriff Crossley and Captain Benton this would not have been put to use. I have worked with many Federal, State and Local law enforcement agencies yet I never witnessed law enforcement officers treated with such a lack of respect by their administrators as I did in the Sheriff's Office. You are right in that the Deputies are doing a great job. Often it is only two maybe three patrolling the county on a shift. Many excellent Deputies have left. These were Deputies that the county really could not afford to lose. I will be the first to say that they put their lives on the line everyday for the citizens of the county, however, they go unappreciated and are subjected to a hostile internal working environment. This treatment was not limited to Deputies either. There were some supervisors who were very mistreated at times because they stood up for what was right. I will never forget some of the harsh treatment Sgt. Hofman was subjected too while I was there. I could not believe that the current administration would turn on a supervisor and do him dirty like they did him. But when I asked I was told that even supervisors get thier turn on the "thingy Wheel". In closing I will say that law enforcement officers have a responsibility to eachother and the communities they serve. They are there to protect life. prevent crime, protect property and address the issues that face the communities they are responsible for patrolling. Now that I said that, I left mainly because I could not and would not be a part of the numbers game that was being placed on us at that time. We were ordered to stop 50 cars a month with the orders being in memo form that this would consist of a mix of tickets and warnings. We were also under alot of pressure to seek and arrest 6 DUI's per month, etc., etc.. When I continued to refuse to conform to the quotas that were ordered, the Chief Deputy had me rated lower than the previous year (even though my stat numbers were higher) and they placed a radar unit in my car so that I would be forced to stop more cars. This also happened to other deputies, however, maybe because where I came from we did not just go out looking for numbers, we did our jobs in the neighborhoods. So as you can see and as I was told "I did not meet their standards". So right now, yes I do work for Anne Arundel County Sheriff's Office and was able to be chosen Deputy Sheriff Of The Year. I am enjoying working over here as I enjoyed working for Queen Anne's County because as they say this is not what I do, it is what I am. A professional Law Enforcement Officer. I hope that I have answered your question.
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Post by Amazed on Oct 5, 2006 21:33:10 GMT -4
Did I miss something? If Chris Tarr is a supervisor in the Sheriff's Department, no wonder there's a problem. I feel sorry for his subordinates. I certainly hope his math skills are better than his grammar or those people will never receive a pay raise.
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Post by ravensjeff on Oct 6, 2006 9:26:21 GMT -4
That's just uncalled for. Give the man credit for being willing to come on here and give his explanation and his real name. I suspect given the kind of treatment you anonymously dish out, few will be likely willing to do the same. And that's a shame.
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Post by Deputy Within on Oct 11, 2006 23:20:08 GMT -4
I agree with the defenition given of a quota by the above post. I also agree that it is wrong. However if you would read what I said you would see that the agency does not set the numbers the deputies do with there work. So in reality if they do not like the numbers in an area all they have to do is work together and they can lower it by not producing in that area. an under 80% in any one area does not hurt a deputy, it can draw attention when you are low in many areas. even. then you can have a bad quarter and still have three good quarters this will even aout in the eval. Any one who would like futher information on this system please feel free to contact me, I would be glad to explain it further. It is great that you are posting here and trying to help us to understand this situation. I truly mean that. What I still don't understand is what you are proposing above and how it differs from a quota system. You write: "the agency does not set the numbers the deputies do with there work" Doesn't this mean that the agency doesn't pick the quota number out of a hat, it evaluates the deputies against a number derived from past performance? Should anti-quota people feel better simply because the number isn't random? You write: "an under 80% in any one area does not hurt a deputy, it can draw attention when you are low in many areas" Doesn't this mean that the deputies are evaluated against a set of numbers (quotas) not just one? Should the anti-quota people feel better simply because there are several non-random numbers and not just one? You write: "all they have to do is work together and they can lower it by not producing in that area" Are you really suggesting that it would be acceptable for the deputies to conspire to not enforce the traffic laws so that one or more of the several non-random numbers against which they will be evaluated become lower? I don't want a traffic ticket any more than anyone else does; I sure don't want the deputies out there ticketing everyone. I honestly believe there are more important things for the deputies to be doing than writing traffic tickets. I also completely understand that there must be a way to evaluate employees and I don't have a clue how it should work in the Sheriff's Dept. However, if it looks like a duck and it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, don't tell me it's an Anas platyrhynchos and expect me not to hunt it. (more simply: you can explain how a number isn't a number, but if it's a count of something that will be used to evaluate performance, then it's a quota) My god this person has got it. Thank god for people with common sense. She needs to be a cop.
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Post by QA Deputy on Oct 11, 2006 23:54:54 GMT -4
I am writing this in regard to all the negative comments about the local police officers (Sheriff Deputies) and the pot shots taken about them in regard to speeding problems. I am currently a patrol deputy for Q.A. Sheriff and have a little insight for all you angry citizens. We live in a time of fast cars, fast food, fast computers and everybody is in a hurry to get somewhere because there all VIP’S. We live in a fast pace world and people want everything done now and wanted it done last week. In order to solve your speeding problem we would have to have a police officer assigned to your development only 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Yeah, like that’s going to happen. On the average we have approximately 2 to 4 deputies working per shift for the entire Queen Anne’s County, which by the way is like over 450 square miles. There is no traffic enforcement unit currently at the Sheriff’s office and is left up to the patrol division to do this function. The patrol deputies are the only officers that would be able to run radar and hard to believe but were actually handling calls for service, conduct criminal investigations, make on view arrests, serve warrants, serve criminal summons, assist on civil process, drug detection and DWI detection. Deputies do not have the time to just sit in your development and run radar all day. Cloverfields is not the only place in the county that needs and wants police services and there are only so many deputies out there at a time. Your anger needs to be taken out on the county commissioners for they hold the budget and a lot the manpower. Perhaps you should take your displeasure out on the county commissioners and not the deputies. I can tell you that the deputies do the best they can with the limited resources they have to work with. Almost like clock work deputies go down to your community to work radar and not 10 minutes later a call for service comes in and we have to leave. Hold your county commissioners that you people voted for, accountable to providing you with the proper manpower of police.
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