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Post by lynn on Sept 23, 2009 15:47:39 GMT -4
lynn-- i appreciate that we do not agree,but i see arguments here that are so closed to other possibilities and so convinced of their position without any real justification. you mentioned a lot of issues you are concerned about, but you did not answer my question. please do not answer with what may or may not happen in the future. neither one of us has a crystal ball. what i see is that i have not had any freedom taken away (except maybe on this forum, where anyone with an opinion that is not right-wing/conservative/republican, or in some cases extremest, is dismissed as brainwashed and/or smited). i have not seen any additional tax placed on me. i will not blast people who are trying to improve things that are wrong; i will give them the opportunity to show what they can do. i will keep an open mind, and try to maintain hope in the future of this country. as for truth hurts and other posters, they are presenting another side--or the other side, if you will. you don't like it, so you blast the messenger. and,btw, don't other posters on here google their views and post them? and what does any of this have to do with living on the island? plenty of posters here do not. peace. Moosie, I will make a list and get back to you on your questions about taxes and freedom. You say the only freedom you have seen taken away is your freedom to be liberal on this forum. You have freedom to say whatever you want, Rich doesn't delete things because of politial views. When I have time I post my political views here and I often get slammed by others for my views. I can't tell you how many times I have gotten responses or cartoons from kl about something I have posted. I hope you never feel like you can't exercise your freedom of speech. People have different views and in this wonderful country of ours you have the right to voice your views. I don't hold back on my feelings even if they are unpopular with some. Heck, I almost brought out the Hulk in Funnel! On a serious note, I do feel that our country is taking away/trying to silence those who oppose this administration. As far as people expressing their views, I say go for it. However, when people come onto forums just for the sake of posting their views on a certain subject when they have nothing else to with the forum or website (or Kent Island in some manner) I consider what they have to say as spam and I believe the people are considered "trolls". Truth hurts may, or may not, live on the island (or have something to do with KI); however I belong to bunch of groups where new members are popping up and don't talk anything about what the group focus is and are just bashing the republicans and anyone to the right of Obama. I do google subjects and post my views; however I do not go on forums that I have no affiliation with just for the sake of posting political views. For example, I do not go on MTV or BET just to say "hey, I think Obama is going to bankrupt our country....". You say you "keep an open mind and try to maintain hope in the future of our country"... I would love to feel the same as you. I tried to keep an open mind when he was elected but could not. Honestly, Obama's changes scare me I too, try to maintain hope in the future of our country. Peace to you too.
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Post by funnel101 on Sept 23, 2009 17:24:59 GMT -4
funnel, I'm curious now. Would you mind telling me where you get your local and national news? Local news, err... from you guys? ;D National news, I get from news.google.com. And from slashdot.org/.
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Post by moosie on Sept 23, 2009 18:55:46 GMT -4
lynn--
you said: "I want a president who doesn't take away any more of our freedom. I want a president who doesn't tax us any more than we already are."
i said: "i can't name a freedom that has been taken away, can you? i can't name an additional tax on me, can you?
you said, among other things: "I will make a list and get back to you on your questions about taxes and freedom."
lynn--i didn't ask for a list, a list you have to go and research. please, just name me one freedom, one tax, that you can speak of yourself, since you say we have lost freedoms and are being taxed more than we have been.
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Post by stephadele on Oct 8, 2009 10:25:33 GMT -4
Moose..Try the Patriotic Act for starters..Its amazing how much the Bush Administration infringed on the rights of the privacy of people in the name of "terrorism".The "War on Terror" is another...I dont want my tax dollars wasted on propaganda for the Republican Party trying to scare and intimidate people into handing over their taxes for "national security"..If the Clinton Administration had done that, conservatives would have been screaming "No more big govt. invading the privacy of people and taking away my rights!"
On a more local level, the sorry state of affairs with the long time DARE program is another. Its been proven DARE doesnt work...I cant tell you how many thousands of kids got referred to me as a substance abuse counselor, who were all graduates of DARE..They all laughed at it. Yet Municipal and town govts still continued to fund DARE and waste tax dollars for decades...No police officer is able to teach kids about the complications of substance abuse.....All while politician fueled taxpayers nixed substance abuse programs that actually worked and helped people...What about my rights as a healthcare professional to do my job on a reimbursement thats poverty level wages to begin with , not worry about it being axed while the police departments get their salaries padded with a failed program that should have been left to the professionals in the healthcare field to do....And then people wondered why kids continued to abuse drugs and alcohol in increasing numbers in the 90s and 2000s...Well, the root problem wasnt even addressed by the appropriate people. Politics is everything, for both Conservatives and Liberals.
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Post by moosie on Oct 8, 2009 14:07:09 GMT -4
Moose..Try the Patriotic Act for starters..Its amazing how much the Bush Administration infringed on the rights of the privacy of people in the name of "terrorism".The "War on Terror" is another...I dont want my tax dollars wasted on propaganda for the Republican Party trying to scare and intimidate people into handing over their taxes for "national security"..If the Clinton Administration had done that, conservatives would have been screaming "No more big govt. invading the privacy of people and taking away my rights!" On a more local level, the sorry state of affairs with the long time DARE program is another. Its been proven DARE doesnt work...I cant tell you how many thousands of kids got referred to me as a substance abuse counselor, who were all graduates of DARE..They all laughed at it. Yet Municipal and town govts still continued to fund DARE and waste tax dollars for decades...No police officer is able to teach kids about the complications of substance abuse.....All while politician fueled taxpayers nixed substance abuse programs that actually worked and helped people...What about my rights as a healthcare professional to do my job on a reimbursement thats poverty level wages to begin with , not worry about it being axed while the police departments get their salaries padded with a failed program that should have been left to the professionals in the healthcare field to do....And then people wondered why kids continued to abuse drugs and alcohol in increasing numbers in the 90s and 2000s...Well, the root problem wasnt even addressed by the appropriate people. Politics is everything, for both Conservatives and Liberals. first, i am moosie, not moose, who is a different member. second, lynn was not complaining about the bush administration, but the obama administration. please reread the posts. and, btw--i still have not gotten a response!
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Post by lynn on Oct 8, 2009 16:20:15 GMT -4
Moose..Try the Patriotic Act for starters..Its amazing how much the Bush Administration infringed on the rights of the privacy of people in the name of "terrorism".The "War on Terror" is another...I dont want my tax dollars wasted on propaganda for the Republican Party trying to scare and intimidate people into handing over their taxes for "national security"..If the Clinton Administration had done that, conservatives would have been screaming "No more big govt. invading the privacy of people and taking away my rights!" On a more local level, the sorry state of affairs with the long time DARE program is another. Its been proven DARE doesnt work...I cant tell you how many thousands of kids got referred to me as a substance abuse counselor, who were all graduates of DARE..They all laughed at it. Yet Municipal and town govts still continued to fund DARE and waste tax dollars for decades...No police officer is able to teach kids about the complications of substance abuse.....All while politician fueled taxpayers nixed substance abuse programs that actually worked and helped people...What about my rights as a healthcare professional to do my job on a reimbursement thats poverty level wages to begin with , not worry about it being axed while the police departments get their salaries padded with a failed program that should have been left to the professionals in the healthcare field to do....And then people wondered why kids continued to abuse drugs and alcohol in increasing numbers in the 90s and 2000s...Well, the root problem wasnt even addressed by the appropriate people. Politics is everything, for both Conservatives and Liberals. first, i am moosie, not moose, who is a different member. second, lynn was not complaining about the bush administration, but the obama administration. please reread the posts. and, btw--i still have not gotten a response! Hey Moosie, I didn't see your last response to me. First I was talking about ALL administrations not just Obama's administration. I clearly stated that I do not want a president who is not going to increase my taxes or take away any more of our freedom. Our freedom and liberty has been on the decline on a continual basis as our government grows larger and larger. When I was a kid my state was putting in a highway that was going through our neighborhood. Everyone tried to fight it because we loved our homes and our neighborhood. We all lost and the highway went in but we all were compensated a fair value (none of us got rich) from the buy out of our homes. Now that highway is a well used highway and its infrastructure was needed. However in today's government, the government is in some cases taking homes not for the public good (a required necessity for this action to happen) but for the sole purpose of increased taxation! I understand completely the reason of law and agree with laws that protect everyone and laws that are for the public good. However, our freedom and liberty is constantly being squeezed from us because of the laws, regulations, taxes, and red tape being imposed by our government! Have you ever seen the episode of Seinfeld where Kramer wanted a stronger shower head but could not get it because of the regulations? That is kind of my point. Whether it be something major or something small, the freedom of people to do as they please is often infringed by pointless regulations (again I am not saying all laws and regulations are not needed, just that it has gotten out of control). When I last bought a toilet I had to buy some water saving toilet. Now what about people who have their own wells, why do they also have to buy water saving toilets? Now we are also required to use a special oil in our lawn mower, apparently someone in the government thought it would be a a bit better for our environment (not sure if it was a proven fact or someone lobbied the government for this new regulation) and now we have to buy and use this special oil that ruins our engines. The lawn mower man here on Kent Island (I don't know his name) said that this is quite common for the machines to break down because of this new oil. If our kids go to a public school, which our tax money goes towards, our kids have to learn what they are instructed to learn by the government mandates. Some places may not have good teachers. We have pretty good teachers and a good team of administrators here on Kent Island. Lets give them the freedom to teach how they want and how they think it is best for the kids. Also, my huge pet peeve, "Black History Month"... when is this nonsense going to stop. We hardly have any black people here on Kent Island yet the kids must study about them for an entire month every year. We now have more Hispanic people in the US than black people are the kids going to be forced to study them for an entire month every year now? I know I will probably get comments and private messages from some of you again claiming that I am a racist. Really, I am not. I just believe that my children's heritage should be equally as important. Pharmaceutical companies are so heavily regulated by our government that the time and costs delay results, production, and final delivery to the citizens. My family also has a small business (not on Kent Island) and the regulations and red tape the government puts on us is ridiculous. Clinton tried and failed to have a nationwide program that had everything about us tied into our driver's license (I don't recall all of the details), but I am so glad this did not pass. Could you imagine the folks at the Glen Burnie MVA office having access to everything about you. We're not just talking driving records, but police records, taxes, and health records. Moosie, you say not to blame Omama for things he has not yet done because none of us have a crystal ball.... well, I can blame him because I'm not having nightmares about him, I'm listening to his very words of what he is trying to do. I flat out do not want a government running my healthcare. My healthcare is a freedom of mine, its not perfect, but I like it and I do not want to give it up. What other freedom have I lost??? Well, I strongly feel that Obama is trying to suppress my freedom of speech. He calls people like me "the mob" just because I oppose his views. He also threatened to keep lists of names of people who oppose his views. Because I am a Christian, a Republican, and a supporter of our Military, our own Homeland Security Director would consider me a possible terrorist! I could go on and on about how I feel about freedom and how I feel that it is constantly being suppressed. Again, I am all for laws that make sense, but I am not for red tape constantly being added or imposed on everything. The government is constantly making rules we don't need and charging bogus taxes to pay for things that nobody wants. Have you ever had to serve jury duty but really could not at the time? Serving on a jury is a good civic thing to do; however, no person should be ordered to serve. One time I had to serve and really could not. I tried to explain why I could not be on the jury and tried to get out of it. I explained how I could do it two weeks later or anytime the following month, but the time they wanted was just extremely bad for me. I was required to serve. If I did not show I and other jurors were told we could get punished. This I consider a real infringement of my security. Again, I don't mind following the laws that have a purpose and are meant for the protection of myself and others or laws that are for a common goal, but we have that, and so much more. Our system is out of control... we have rules, regulations, laws, and taxes on just about everything. The reign of our government is going to break us. We need common sense laws but we do not need to our government acting like movie directors telling us what to do and what to say.
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Post by moosie on Oct 8, 2009 19:30:39 GMT -4
lynn said
"When I last bought a toilet I had to buy some water saving toilet. Now what about people who have their own wells, why do they also have to buy water saving toilets?"
i'm about to eat, so can't address or read all now, but this does not make sense. it is about saving--conserving--water, not saving you money. making the world better, not your wallet. there may be plenty of water in the world, but not all drinkable. the toilets are meant to save water, no matter where it comes from.
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Post by safetildecember on Oct 8, 2009 19:32:37 GMT -4
Wells run dry.
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Post by moosie on Oct 8, 2009 21:09:21 GMT -4
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Post by stephadele on Oct 11, 2009 23:33:52 GMT -4
Lynn...I can tell you from many years of professional healthcare experience that phamaceutical companies are NOT heavily regulated by the govt.....If that were the case, most people would already know about the huge waste they have incrued in the name of profits.....Im wondering what makes you think that?...Pharm companies answer to no one except themselves.. I wonder why you think that just because an organization is a business, that means it doesnt have the same problems you stated for govt. run programs?.....It certainly does when business is a monopoly/and or they all share the same rules of operating....And worse, unlike govt. programs ,which are axed if they dont produce in a timely fashion, , there is no one there to put checks and balances and monitor what Phamaceutical companies do. Do you know how much a one minute TV commercial run by Pfizer or Glaxo Smith Klein costs?...About several million dollars...all paid for by consumers like yourself..Why is this okay and no complaints? The reason why there are costs and delays is due to the nature of the big business and increasing prices to keep up their profits....You the consumer then foot the bill on that.
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Post by falgar25 on Oct 12, 2009 2:25:12 GMT -4
Lynn...I can tell you from many years of professional healthcare experience that phamaceutical companies are NOT heavily regulated by the govt.....If that were the case, most people would already know about the huge waste they have incrued in the name of profits.....Im wondering what makes you think that?...Pharm companies answer to no one except themselves.. I wonder why you think that just because an organization is a business, that means it doesnt have the same problems you stated for govt. run programs?.....It certainly does when business is a monopoly/and or they all share the same rules of operating....And worse, unlike govt. programs ,which are axed if they dont produce in a timely fashion, , there is no one there to put checks and balances and monitor what Phamaceutical companies do. Do you know how much a one minute TV commercial run by Pfizer or Glaxo Smith Klein costs?...About several million dollars...all paid for by consumers like yourself..Why is this okay and no complaints? The reason why there are costs and delays is due to the nature of the big business and increasing prices to keep up their profits....You the consumer then foot the bill on that. ? ? ? ? ? ? I suspect there is a bit more Govt. involvement in bringing a new drug to market than for releasing the next Guitar Hero. Does that TV commercial cost Pfizer any more than it costs GM, AT&T, or Bud? Are the costs of Kmart's commercials not passed along to the consumer? Capitalism is a good thing. Where? Not in this State! Not in this country!
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Post by stephadele on Oct 12, 2009 11:35:24 GMT -4
Lynn...If you want to pay for million dollar drug commercials in the form of increased premium costs and decreased availability of your medical care, thats your decision.,,,The problem is, I dont want to subsidize it with my healthcare costs.....I also dont want to be forcefed a 100 dollar lunch plate twice a month I didnt want or ask for , that you are footing the bill on, just so I can keep my job......Do you really want to pay for my free lunches and that of everyone else??? :....No?...Then how can you support the drug companies??...Im also reading about your complaints with the pharmaceutical companies, yet you support the reasons why they are that way in the first place...doesnt make sense to me to complain about something you are supporting with your vote and insurance premiums.....Pfizer and Glaxo Smith Klein are also jacking up prices for your medications every time they run an ad on TV....I guess I find it hard to believe you would be willing to support corporate welfare while your medication costs increase and their availbility decreases based upon supply and demand. Your posts complain of the inefficiencies of the healthcare and drug pharm systems...Supporting unchecked monitoring of drug companies is a consequence of that..Which is why unchecked capitalism is wrong if you dont like subsidizing corporate welfare.... Plenty of my govt supported substance abuse programs were axed whenever new Republican politicians took office and wanted to "get tough" on drug abuse..Their decisions cost you increased drug costs, longer doctor wait periods and increased insurance premiums, increased taxes for new jails to house more inmates, as clinics and hospitals were then flooded with people whose treatment programs were axed...which resulted in more hospitalizations, more waiting lists for services in mental health clinics, more clogged waiting rooms in hospital ERs. Meanwhile, pharmaceutical companies were allowed to make a killing at the expense of my clients going without medication or food if they bought meds instead. So we have a situation where more people are needing non preventative emergency services while their drug costs are increasing and becoming more unavailable. When people cant get preventative care, their illnesses become more expensive, more serious, and more complicated and thus more COSTLY to treat...All that happens because a politician decides to cut a program and people support that without knowing the consequences for doing so....It only causes a bigger problem down the road.. So be careful of what you wish for. When I hear complaints about free reign of pharmaceutical companies from others who supported it in the first place, all I can do is throw my hands up and say "Thats the consequences for voting the way you did" And...we still have pharmaceutical companies jacking up drug prices while every other Western country in the world can get them for free or much cheaper than here.. I dont see how any of this is "fiscally responsible"
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Post by safetildecember on Oct 12, 2009 11:59:45 GMT -4
The vast majority of drug addicts that enter rehab go back to doing drugs when they get out. Rehabs are very expensive and they obviously do not have a great success rate. I find that money not well spent.
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Post by stephadele on Oct 12, 2009 12:05:46 GMT -4
Not true..The problem is many drug recovery programs are cut before a person has a chance to complete his or her treatment program. Also, many drug abusers need mental health services which are often unavailable or undiagnosed and hidden....This is a set up for relapse. Research proves that when mental health disorders are not treated at the same time as a the substance abuse, relapse rates go up drastically. Another problem to that is people dont want to support all those services that are needed for success...Because it does call for some investment of money...so you get what you pay for...alot of people relapsing because they got inadequate, incomplete and/or shoddy care from a treatment program that was poorly funded to begin with.. If you invest in something half ass, you get crap in return. Rehabs are expensive because health insurance companies charge rediculous amounts for treatment...All the while keeping long waiting lists for care and reduced treatment stays. Another part of the problem is treatment programs cant keep highly trained and experienced professionals like myself so staff turnover is high...with new hires being those with the least amount of clinical experience.. ALL of this amounts to...you guessed it...increased relapses...
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Post by safetildecember on Oct 12, 2009 12:10:29 GMT -4
People relapse because alcohol and drugs are evil. It has nothing to do with money. There are plenty of people that have access to the best care, spend many months in rehabs and get the psychiatric medical attention they need and they still go back to using drugs when they get out. Once an addict, always an addict, finding the strength to quit is rare.
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Post by stephadele on Oct 12, 2009 12:16:11 GMT -4
People relapse because alcohol and drug abuse is part of a sickness...The substance itself isnt evil. Unfortunately that sickness is complicated to treat, requiring high skilled and trained professionals. Most people do not want to be addicts....Addiction is a coping response used to cover up unbearable feelings. Unless you do treatment right and thorough the first time, high relapses are inevitable.. Also, its common for many addicts to have multiple relapses. Thats part of the learning curve of being in recovery...it is time consuming. But I find most people on the outside of it want quick fixes that dont require money or effort because they dont know whats involved in the recovery process. You cant get something for nothing.
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Post by safetildecember on Oct 12, 2009 12:30:56 GMT -4
To quote you "Also, its common for many addicts to have multiple relapses." That is exactly my point. Seems like a waste of money for people to go into rehab over and over and never stop using.
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Post by stephadele on Oct 12, 2009 12:54:29 GMT -4
If treatment for cancer or hypertension or diabetes requires relapses and learning curves on the part of their newly diagnosed, would you say that?...Please...unless you are an addict or treat them, you dont know what recovery entails....Many do stop using, but it took years to make an addict, dont expect that one rehab period will take care of all thats needed in full treatment...Treatment requires many months/years in therapy..Rehab is the FIRST of many steps of recovery....One often doesnt stay clean and sober with ONLY rehab and no follow up treatment like groups and therapy. Get educated about what addiction is and what treatment entails before assuming. Treatment programs that are thorough, treating both mental health and addiction components, in both inpatient and outpatient, and are funded properly have higher success rates. Thats a fact.
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Post by funnel101 on Oct 12, 2009 13:27:17 GMT -4
To quote you "Also, its common for many addicts to have multiple relapses." That is exactly my point. Seems like a waste of money for people to go into rehab over and over and never stop using. From this logic, you would also be against my receiving treatment for rheumatoid arthritis, since I will have multiple "relapses" (flare-ups) over the course of my life.
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Post by RobMoore on Oct 12, 2009 13:50:28 GMT -4
People relapse because alcohol and drugs are evil. It has nothing to do with money. Inanimate objects have no morality. They are neither good nor evil.
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Post by safetildecember on Oct 12, 2009 14:21:50 GMT -4
I am not assuming, I know from experience with addicts. Statistics agree with me. I am not saying they do not deserve help, I am saying the help rarely works. Statistics prove that. Fact.
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Post by safetildecember on Oct 12, 2009 14:23:15 GMT -4
To quote you "Also, its common for many addicts to have multiple relapses." That is exactly my point. Seems like a waste of money for people to go into rehab over and over and never stop using. From this logic, you would also be against my receiving treatment for rheumatoid arthritis, since I will have multiple "relapses" (flare-ups) over the course of my life. Flareups of medical illnesses and relapses from drug abuse are entirely different. If you look at statistics, the success rate for drug rehabs is between 2% and 20%.
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Post by stephadele on Oct 14, 2009 10:59:55 GMT -4
Safe...Id like to know where you are getting your statistics.....Depending on where you are getting your info, the recovery rates for people VARY, depending on age, sex, amount of relapses, comorbidity of an existing mental health disorder....Where are all those factors in your reseach and how is that broken down?....You are forgetting that mental disorders often accompany drug addiction, often as high as 90%....Also, womens treatment and recovery rates differ from mens as well as do persons over age 25.....Where is that info?.....Women often abuse substances as a result of child sexual abuse and about 80% of them remain sober after they received adequate mental health therapy...Addiction wasnt the main problem with them...Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is and treating that helps them tremedously with the secondary problem, which is addiction. My rates as a mental health and susbtance abuse therapist for 20 years were much higher than 2 to 20%..At least half of my clients remained clean and sober within one year of working with me after rehab..Thats 50% not even 20%, so I think your stats are pretty flawed....where are you getting them?..Politicians and special interest groups and lobbyists can inflate and manipulate stats out of context to win people over to their cause.. Ive looked at several research stats from places that support a certain type of politics with their stats and info on addicts, particularly women, that arent close to being accurate. Ive also had women addicts come to me with information given to them by their pastors and other authority figures with political interests that were harmful to them and ignorant and very untrue.
Flareups from other medical illnesses are not much different from a drug relapse because addiction is a medical illness as well as a psychological one....There are more similaries than differences.....So one would treat it in the context of a medical illness..There are many physical complications from drug abuse, JUST as there are for diabetes and cancer...Again, I suggest you get education on it from healthcare providers who have done the work for decades as well as people in long term recovery...
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Post by safetildecember on Oct 14, 2009 11:08:47 GMT -4
Many of the rehabilitation statistics that people claim are flawed. Many of them claim success just because someone completed a program or stayed sober for 6 months. I do not call that success. I do not call someone being sober for a year total success either. Check back with the patient in 6-10 years and see if they stayed sober the entire time. Some groups claim closer to 70% success but as I stated, most of them are calling anyone that completed the program and did not walk out a success.
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Post by stephadele on Oct 14, 2009 11:19:31 GMT -4
Staying sober beyond 6-7 years straight often isnt the main problem....This is what the uninformed public doesnt understand about the nature of recovery....Slips are often neccessary for growth and change....Bouncing back quickly after a "slip" is far more important...Ive worked with the same people in recovery for 10 years...many with several slips here and there....What I look for is what did they do after the slip??...Continue drinking?...Call someone?..Go to an AA meeting?...Proactive behavior on the part of the addict is a much stronger indictator of success in the long run versus any relapses...Slips are educational and can actually help people to stay sober because they are often a learning experience...If people dont have learning experiences in recovery, they are much more vulnerable to having a full blown relapse..Those slips often did NOT result in a full blown relapse or harmful consequences to themselves or their family members.....It is precisely this information that isnt explained or presented in stats on "success" of recovery.
If you are getting your stats from inpatient treatment units only , then the info is incomplete. They dont work with people beyond the inpatient stay in treatment so they wouldnt have info beyond that time for patients, such as whether or not they began or completed outpatient therapy...Those that dont follow up for outpatient treatment are more likely to relapse..So they are only getting a group of people at a particular, short period of time in their recovery...the very beginning of it...
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